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Are shooting aces always the best coach?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by tincanman, Sep 8, 2012.

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  1. tincanman

    tincanman Member

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    Just food for thought. I see repeated offers from the aces and others that recommend taking the usual winner's clinics.

    I know that they have a successful career going in the ATA but does the successful shooter always make the best coach?

    I have a child in SCTP and the coaches don't usually shoot a single registered target. They put their time in and support the kids. I've watched a DVD from one big shooter and it's not really any different than what's being taught to the kids in the SCTP program.

    If we look at most sports, it seems that most successful coaches were never the top dog in their respective sport.
     
  2. Michael Wascom

    Michael Wascom Member

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    A good coach needs to know the fundamentals of any sport they are coaching and then know how to pull out the best in a person.

    As is in anything,what works for one may not work for another.
     
  3. Lyle

    Lyle Member

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    tin can,

    I couldn't agree more! Trapshooting is one of the few sports that unless you are an All-American you are not worth listening to. I don't think Tiger woods is giving lessons and his coach is not the top golfer in the world.

    Some of the All-Americans ARE good coaches and some are not.

    Lyle
     
  4. Star4Ever

    Star4Ever Member

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    A coach should understand the fundamentals of a sport AND be able to watch a participant in sporting action in order to help the participant adjust one or more fundamentals.

    However, this means that the coach needs the ability to convey concepts and instruction in a clear and understandable manner.... (this critical skill, if lacking, would not be good for the coach or the participant).

    "see the target and hit the target" ..... vagueness like this is just not going to make it.

    Some of the best coaches (I have not taken a trap class) I have run into, tend to ask guiding questions which lead the participant towards a thought process and a conversation and then hopefully a new technique or adjustment to try and evaluate.
     
  5. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    An instructor has to be a good communicator in addition to having the skills to qualify him/her to instruct others. I've scheduled and taken numerous trapshooting clinics over the years, some of them multiple times. There is one I only booked once as the instructor left me as well as many of the other attendees with lots of "whats" but very few "whys" and "hows."

    Ed
     
  6. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    My mother was an extremely intelligent women who earned a Masters degree in the mid 30's. She spent 35 years in the education field. She often said, "those that can do, those that can't teach". I have taken numerous seminars from most of the great shooters, my opinion is that these people are not truly teachers.
     
  7. jmac_cope

    jmac_cope Active Member

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    "Shooting aces" are not AWAYS the best coach but some are fantastic coaches or teachers. Take Leo Harrison III. He has a wonderful ability to impart his wisdom and experience on other shooters. He is very unselfish and makes himself available to his students even after the clinics.
    I also think people like Big Leo, who can walk the talk, have a lot of credibility with their students.
    JMAC
     
  8. trapwife

    trapwife Well-Known Member

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    Remember the saying, "give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, but give him a fishing pole and he can eat forever"...Leo tries to give his students the tools they can use for the lifetime of their shooting career. Everything he SUGGESTS is based on his 45 years of experience. He is trying to eliminate your weaknesses and to help the student build on his/her strong points. I have to agree, different instructors are effective with different students.
     
  9. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    The people who coach Olympic skaters are for the most part, not former greats or present day greats like Leo.

    Let's diffetrentiate between teaching, (which I do quite well) and coaching someone who is already talented and motivated. I don't think I could do an aspiring shooter who wants his 98 average to be 99.5 any good.

    I could, however, most likely get an 85 average guy into the 90's.

    As far as top shooters teaching, some can and some don't do as well. They may have an unusual technique that they try to impart to their students, who have to unlearn what they know to use the new technique.

    Get references before you spend your money.

    HM
     
  10. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Remember that there are such a thing as bad students, and these people will never get better no matter who they take lessons from, because they're simply not coachable.


    I think Halfmile has it largely correct, though. It depends what level you're trying to get to. Some putz like the guy who wrote the russell books could probably take somebody who's never shot a target in their life and get them to figure out which end of the gun the shot comes out of, break 17/25 etc...even though he may have never got off the 20 yard line in his life. And I'm sure this newbie would "feel" like he got "good instruction," and say so if asked.


    But somebody who's already at 27, and is trying to get better at it, will be far better off being coached by an all-star, even if he's a terrible communicator, than being yakked at by some no-name 24-yard shooter with a master's degree in education. The all-star can look at what the shooter is doing, and use his experience to hopefully find the words to lead that person down the right path, while all the 24-yard "super-educator" can do is theorize and use encouraging words...because he simply doesn't know.




    There are different levels of coaches...and there are different levels of students.


    Students "outgrow" coaches, all the time.
     
  11. ljutic73

    ljutic73 Well-Known Member

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    I would love to take a clinic from Leo. From videos I've seen of him, I like his style. I had the privilege of taking a Britt Robinson clinic. Another wonderful communicator and teacher.

    Ron Burr
     
  12. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    There's no shortage of teachers/coaches who are incapable of registering averages much over 85%. Ask any 25 YO pretty girl who shows up at a trap range if I'm not correct!!
     
  13. Jennifer

    Jennifer Member

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    I think buzzgun has it right. I'm an SCTP coach. I've registered a few targets and won a few trophies here and there, and I'm content to mostly shoot practice at my local club and shoot Custers/Annies. I'm an NRA certified shotgun instructor and know enough from my own experience that I can help kids improve their scores, but there's no way in the Wide World of Sports that I'm going to be putting on clinics for AA-27-AA shooters looking for that extra target.

    Jennifer
     
  14. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    You don't need a clinic from a top shooter. Just ask your question on here and you will get more advice than you can handle from C & D shooters and non shooters.

    If I have a hitch in my game I want to ask someone who has been there and fixed that. Not someone who heard, read, saw or knew someone who did it. I have seen more shooters and amateur athelets screwed up with bad habits or technique from some well meaning individuals. That does not mean that all great shooters are great teachers BUT they can tell you what works for them and that it might work for you.

    If you don't want to take a Big Dog clinic then don't but don't come an here and bash them.

    Don
     
  15. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    When I aquire a glitch in my style I sometimes ask my wife for an opinion. Her advice is usually spot on. It helps to have a wife who can carry averages close to 98%!!
     
  16. Jack L. Smith

    Jack L. Smith Member

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    Tincaman, congratulations on being open to a coach. After many years, and several clinics, I also use a coach now. I have improved, and have more consistant results, better breaks and more progress.

    It is importatnt to break down your (son's) goals, and status at the time, to decide what is needed.

    Fer example, a great coach may not be able to help if the gun doesn't fit perfectly or he experiences recoil, or his POI is not maatched with his sight picture. What good is good mental or concentration technique if the gun doesn't shoot exactly where he points it?

    So, first you need to get a 'coach' or person who can assess and instruct on gun fit, set up, posture & technique. Those are the basics that some above have referenced.

    Until that person (or coach) & the shooter perfect those basics, one on one, moving on to other more advanced shooting is difficult & premature.

    So, try to find a 'coach' for the stage necessary. Certainly some can do it all.....or you may need to switch eventually.

    In my opinion, working with a good shooter with AAA credentials at some point in their career is good; if they have won, they know what it takes to win and deal with advanced aspects.

    I suggest: One on one with the right person, dedicated to that sport ( trap, skeet, SC etc. not a generalist), is your best bet.

    Good luck,

    js in PA
     
  17. 2labman

    2labman Member

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    Could Angelo Dundee beat Mohammed Ali in a boxing match??
     
  18. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Nah, he was too old!!
     
  19. unplugged

    unplugged Active Member

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    From a "technique" perspective a coach need not be accomplished if they know what they are teaching. BUT from a competition and MENTAL prespective, I would want the GUY that already knows HOW TO WIN to also teach the mental part of any shotgun game. AND a Coach that has NEVER WON most likely does not know that part of the game. Shotgunning and hitting targets is "less" athletic than some of the examples given (baseball,football, tennis) all need both technical skill and mental skill ALONG with some natural ablities.
    Any coach that KNOWS how to HIT THEM all, should also be able to DO it, in shotgunning. (or he should have been able to at one time!)
    Not all great shots are great coaches, but some great shots are the best coaches!!
     
  20. likes-to-shoot

    likes-to-shoot Well-Known Member

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    A "teacher" can give their students the fundamentals on how to accomplish the subject at hand.

    A "coach" can bring out the best in a student even if they know the fundamentals of the subject at hand.
     
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