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Are my reloads correct?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Masterplan, Sep 28, 2011.

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  1. Masterplan

    Masterplan TS Member

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    Im reloading the AA or STS or club hulls with;
    Noble sport .209 primers (cheddites wont fit into my PW primer hopper)damit!
    17.6 Gr. of Promo (I guess since they dont have a chart for Promo YET)
    1-1/8 oz. of #8 Magnum
    CB Fig. 8 wads

    Thanks Tom

    Also, can you mix and match loads, I Mean the "recipes" on the alliant powder web page seem ??? strict........
     
  2. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Your load sounded OK UNTIL you got to the I GUESS part for your powder drop. If you have not weighed your powder drops you need to stop loading and buy a scale. The load you are using (IF THE POWDER DROP IS 17.6 PROMO) should give you in the neighborhood of 1145 fps with pressures in the 10.5K psi range. With pressure levels in that range the LAST thing you want to do is GUESS on your powder charge and the second to last thing you want to do is mix and match loads (with the exception that Red Dot loads can be substituted for PROMO loads and visa versa BY WEIGHT of charge NOT by volume).

    --- Chip King ---
     
  3. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Chipking is correct; Promo is a good powder but like Red Dot it is a fast burning high pressure powder. Green Dot is slower burning and gives you more leeway for safe loads with moderate pressures. You will find that recipes for AA hulls are different from recipes for STS hulls.
     
  4. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Ditto what "Chip" said. NEVER "mix and match" components unless the powder company recommends such swaps. ALWAYS use published/tested data to load with and by all means scale your powder drops to make sure all is within limits. You don't need to weigh every load, but you should weigh the first few and spot check. Not trying to sound like a butt, we are just concerned for your safety and those shooting around you.
     
  5. MKillian

    MKillian TS Member

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    <I>"17.6 Gr. of Promo (I guess since they dont have a chart for Promo YET...</I>

    Yes, THEY do have a Promo chart: use the Red Dot charts (data).

    BUT... keep in mind that Promo is blended to duplicate the ballistics of Red Dot but not necessarily its physical properties. Each time you start a new batch number of Promo you MUST check the drops with a powder scale and adjust the powder bushing size so you drop the same weight of Promo that's called for of Red Dot in the data you're loading. The bushing you need for Promo will may vary a bit from one batch to the next.

    Mike
     
  6. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Brooksironworks:

    A careful review of loading manuals will confirm that SOME data works just fine in AA hulls AND Remington hulls including STS, NITRO27, Gun Clubs, and the STS precursor - the Premier.

    The only way to tell what data will safely and effectively work in ANY hull is to consult the manuals or other reliable sources of data like wad and primer manufacturers.

    In case Chip wasn't suffiently clear, Promo is a 100% grain for grain substitute for Red Dot. That's why Alliant didn't create a separate chart for Promo.

    As for mixing and matching...

    Alliant and pretty much every other data source warns against substituting components. Surely you don't think some advice dispensing goof on ts.c has more expertise than the people who do this stuff for a living, do you?

    sissy
     
  7. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    from one advice dispensing goof, How does one get into trouble with 17.6 grs of Promo?
     
  8. hoot619

    hoot619 Member

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    If you are not checking your powder drops with a scale. How would you know what you have. Charts are guides but drops have to checked with a scale.If you don't weigh them you don't know what you have. It is a safety factor not only for you but others around you. Ken U
     
  9. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Johnny,
    The point is the guy does not know he has 17.6 gr of Promo. There is no bushing chart for Promo due to its nature.

    Alliant has load charts for Promo and they duplicate Red Dot.

    But 1 cc of Red Dot will not weigh the same as 1 cc of Promo.

    Don Verna
     
  10. Masterplan

    Masterplan TS Member

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    Well, thank you for all the very good information. I do in fact use the Red dot on the chart as reccomended.
    I have a digital scale I can weight out the powder, But Ill have to get a better understanding of this first.
    My other question embedded somewhere in there was;
    can you mix the cheddites or win.209 or noble sport with any hull? also can I mIx and match hulls with any of the the different primers and wads?
    Ive used the CB brand (cheapest), the long legged ones and the figure 8's recently.
    NOW that said, does it matter much about mix matching those ?
    Me along with some of the other guys at the club usually go for the cheapest ingredients out there.

    You guy are great for giving me the time on this. :eek:)

    Again thanks
     
  11. Masterplan

    Masterplan TS Member

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    Well, thank you for all the very good information. I do in fact use the Red dot on the chart as reccomended. I have a digital scale I can weight out the powder, But Ill have to get a better understanding of this first. My other question embedded somewhere in there was; can you mix the cheddites or win.209 or noble sport with any hull? also can I mIx and match hulls with any of the the different primers and wads? Ive used the CB brand (cheapest), the long legged ones and the figure 8's recently. NOW that said, does it matter much about mix matching those ? Me along with some of the other guys at the club usually go for the cheapest ingredients out there.

    You guy are great for giving me the time on this. :eek:)

    Again thanks
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you already have the website for Alliant or not but I have included it above. I would suggest you look through it they have listings for Promo as well as the rest of their powders.

    They also have loads for different Wads and Primers.

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. MKillian

    MKillian TS Member

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    <I>"My other question embedded somewhere in there was; can you mix the cheddites or win.209 or noble sport with any hull? also can I mIx and match hulls with any of the the different primers and wads? Ive used the CB brand (cheapest), the long legged ones and the figure 8's recently. NOW that said, does it matter much about mix matching those ?"</I>

    Don't get carried away with "mix and match"; it's a bad frame of mind to get into. Authorized substitutions are a different matter.

    FOLLOW PUBLISHED DATA! DON"T MAKE SUBSTITUTIONS BASED ON ANY ADVICE EXCEPT WHAT YOU GET FROM THE COMPANY THAT MADE THE POWDER YOU'RE USING! Well-intentioned advice from friends and discussion forums is usually untested and based on incorrect assumptions (or the fact that the giver still has both eyes). There are few things more dangerous than 2nd- or 3rd-hand reloading advice.

    At one time there was a statement in the Hodgdon loading that Winchester 209s and Nobel Sport primers were interchangeable. Nobel had formulated their primers to match Winchester's ballistics. That statement is no longer in the book so something changed either with the primers or the company. Call them for information.

    If the manufacturer of a wad says that their XYZ wad is a direct replacement for some other manufacturer's ABC wad, you can believe them... and ONLY them.

    You have to determine which loading data a specific hull uses. Powder companies generally break their loading data into 3 hull groups: Remington tapered hulls, Winchester compression-formed hulls and Federal straight-walled hulls. The data for one group is not interchangeable with the data for another group although they may use some of the same components. If you want to use hulls from outside the three general groups, call your powder manufacturer and find out which loading data to use.

    Mike
     
  14. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    dverna , my comment was aimed at the mix and match question. If using 17.6gr , there is really no way to get into trouble . It won't matter what primer or wad is used.

    "can you mix the cheddites or win.209 or noble sport with any hull"

    sure you can, won't make any real difference. that is the three I use. NS for the last couple years because they are cheapest. Wads won't matter either, although one should use a tapered wad with the AA or Rem hull.

    Components only matter when getting out of 2 3/4 dram range and into max loads. 17.6 is in the range of light trap loads.
     
  15. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    Beware of Noble Sports primers! They are larger than Winchester,Federal and other American primers.

    If you decide to use them ... segregate those hulls and use only the Noble primers for subsequent reloads. American primers will FALL OUT of a hull previously loaded with a Noble primer or other European sized primer.

    Please don't ask how I found that out!
     
  16. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    I have done a little research and found the Cheddite primers have the burn as Win209.
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Last spring I did an experiment that involved Promo and I recall being surprised at the pressure I got from what seems like a reasonable amount. I use Federal primers and that probably upped both the pressure and speed I got, but here's the 17.5 grains we are talking about.

    PromoPowder175grainscopy.jpg

    The circled value at the lower left is the average pressure for five examples of this load in an STS hull. It's 11,300 psi and I consider that a bit more than I generally aim for.

    Though it's been well covered above, the general idea that Promo and Red Dot are similar only holds when the comparison is by weight, not volume. I often use about a 32 bushing when I load Red Dot; a 32 bushing would be a problem here, since I'm getting all this pressure with a 30 bushing.


    Neil
     
  18. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    From Alliant's reloading guide:
    Hull, Rem STS

    1 1/8

    Promo 17.5

    Fed 209A [209A is listed as hotter than 209]

    WAA12 , DRA12 or DR XL1

    10,500

    1,145


    Apparently Alliant is not too alarmed.
     
  19. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Johnny:

    The only advice I dispense about reloading is "always use tested data from reliable sources". That's because your opinion and mine concerning what 'should' work or 'should' be safe means diddly squat.

    How components work in a given shotshell is a matter of physics. Internal ballistics is complicated business. That's why powder companies pay people with the proper training and equipment to test loads and establish empirically what really DOES work and what really IS safe.

    Extrapolating from the tested and known to the untested and unknown is a risky venture. For example, you pointed out how a Fed209A is a "hot" primer. What you implied, but didn't say, is that hot primers (when compared to less hot primers) ignite powder charges faster resulting in higher chamber pressures.

    All that is absolutely true except when it ISN'T.

    One of my favorite published recipes calls for 18.5 grains of Red Dot, pushing 1 1/8 oz. of shot in a 12S3 wad out of a Top Gun hull. With those components, one can use ANY of the following primers and get an 1,145 fps load: Fed209A, CCI209M, Win209, and Rem209P. What changes with different primers are the chamber pressures.

    The LOWEST chamber pressure for that load is achieved with the 'hot' Fed209A. The HIGHEST chamber pressure goes with the medium hot Win209. Pressures for the Rem209P and CCI209 magnum fall in the middle. Interestingly, their pressures are within 200 psi of each other.

    Did you catch that last part? The way hot CCI magnum and the least hot Rem209P result in middling pressures that are nearly the same. If you had predicted pressures based on those four primers, would you have guessed the right order??

    The point? One's choice of primer matters. Until a reliable sourse of data says one primer can be safely substituted for another, doing so isn't a good idea.

    Another factor commonly overlooked by reloaders is crimp depth. That one variable alone can make a heck of a difference.

    The article linked above speaks to the effect of primer substitutions and crimp depths. Notice it provides empirical test results to back up the author's conclusions.

    At this point I'll go back to my original question. "Surely you don't think some advice dispensing goof on ts.c has more expertise than the people who do this stuff for a living, do you?"

    sissy
     
  20. Unsingle

    Unsingle Member

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    Tom, I have reloaded for over 50 years. Everytime I start to reload, be it handgun, rifle, or shotgun, the first thing I do is to weigh the first several powder drops on an accurate scale. If you have learned anything from this thread, please do that at the start of every reloading session. It may save your life!!
     
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