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Are carryovers fair to the working man?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by PHILFIRST, Jul 8, 2009.

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  1. PHILFIRST

    PHILFIRST TS Member

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    I had friends shoot at the Va state shoot both Wed and Thur, tied for there class but had to work the next day. Why no shoot off for the working man?
     
  2. wdr-NY

    wdr-NY TS Member

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    I don't particularly care for carryovers myself. I enjoy the excitement of shoot offs... but I certainly understand the reasoning behind them.

    To answer your question, yes... they ARE fair. Its printed in each program which events will be carried over in the event of a tie. If you know you can't shoot in the next days event, then it is a risk you are knowingly taking.

    Walker
     
  3. PHILFIRST

    PHILFIRST TS Member

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    I agree if it's in the program you run that risk. But whats your opinion of the reasoning behind them?
     
  4. wdr-NY

    wdr-NY TS Member

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    I can tell you this... I'd rather shoot off. But of course, that's because I don't have 8 million shoot offs under my belt.

    For the AAA shooters like Chris Vendel, Steph Sandler, Dave Shaeffer et al, carryovers are a good thing. They'd have to bring triple the amount of shells for shoot offs if there were no carry overs! Seriously, the top guns prefer to carry over until Saturday.

    Walker
     
  5. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    If the carryover event is the shoot-off for a previous days's event, where is the fairness in making the shooters using it as a shootoff ONLY have to pay for it? Same-day shootoff shooters get their shoot-off targets at no cost.

    Wouldn't it be fair if the people shooting a carryover shootoff were given an option: no charge for the shootoff but no chance for a placing in the event regardless of score, or pay full price for the event used as a shootoff with the customary chance of placing in that one as well as the one being decided by the shootoff?

    Carol Lister
     
  6. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    The reasoning is that suppose it's a 100 target singles event and that there are 25 people tied for 1ST place with perfect scores. It would probably take most of the evening and hundreds and hundreds of birds to declare a winner.

    That costs the club a ton of free birds not to mention trap help to run the shoot offs. Plus you might still have to shoot off a handicap or doubles event.
    It would never get done in one evening. Not to mention shell costs for the participants.

    The next day there is a 200 bird singles event so the previous high scores get weeded out during that event with no additional cost to the club.

    Do I like it? No, not at all, but the reasoning is understandable.
     
  7. K80433SC

    K80433SC Member

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    I TOTALLY agree with Walker, in that all shooters are made aware (in advance), whether an event is slated to be shot off at its completion, or if the score is carried over to the next event.

    HOWEVER -- I have a different point to make : The "top guns" -- of which most ties for high scores are comprised, anyway -- will be on their usual game for the subsequent event. Who I feel suffers most by carry-overs is the more average shooter, who might have had that "best day of his life" score. For whatever reason - his concentration level, visual acuity and reflexes seemed to be at their peak on THAT particular day. Most likely -- such a shooter will not have that same level of competitiveness the next day, or two days later, etc.

    It is unfortunate ; I've seen such a scenario played out many times. That average shooter most-likely would have sucuumbed to the "top gun" in a shoot-off, anyway. But -- it certainly would be nice to see more events shot off, as opposed to being carried over. jmo..................
     
  8. wdr-NY

    wdr-NY TS Member

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    Jerry,
    Well stated...

    ...I hope to see you in Cicero. If you're not coming, then I'll see you at the Zone in a couple of weeks.

    Walker
     
  9. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    The better question might be, are end of the day shootoffs fair to the club. Given the cost to supply the targets, I'd say no....

    the other possibility is only shoot off championship events....
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    B,C and D class ties should be shot off at the end of the day. A,AA and AAA carry overs till hades freezes over. JMHO Hap
     
  11. jlb

    jlb Member

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    The use of carryovers in handicap events is potentially unfair. Take the case of a 23 yard shooter who shoots a 98 in a preliminary event and ties with a 27 yard shooter. The 23 yd shooter will shoot at a longer yardage in subsequent events, which is not the case for the 27 yd shooter.
     
  12. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    jlb, that's why the rules say-

    ATA Rulebook, Section IV, 4, H:

    "The management of a tournament may rule that ties shall be carried over to the first (or more if needed) sub-event of the next like event. However, when there are ties in a Handicap event and any tying shooter earns yardage and consequently will be shooting farther back in the subsequent Handicap event, all tying shooters must agree to the carry over."
     
  13. jlb

    jlb Member

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    MTA Tom

    Thanks for the information concerning Section IV, 4, H. I was unaware of this rule and I have not seen it applied at shoots.

    jlb
     
  14. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    jlb, I've never seen a carryover in handicap..
     
  15. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    Snivel....cry...whine....bitch...I want it my way...snivel....cry...whine....bitch...it's not fair.....I don't care if it costs the club more money...snivel....cry...whine....bitch!

    Of course if they do away with 'carry overs' ... the clubs will have to raise prices....snivel....cry...whine....bitch!

    I you don't like they way the program is set up....STAY HOME!
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gary- You are correct. Time is one major factor why shoot offs are carried over. At the VA State shoot, the volunteer management arrives up each day around 7:30 AM. They work all day and get to leave between 9-10 PM. They do this every day of the five day shoot. If we added more shoot offs, that would mean the work would end one or two hours later. On Saturday, when all singles shoot offs are concluded, it is not unusual for the shoot to end around 11:00 PM.

    There is a simple solution to this that management would embrace. Hold all shoot offs on the day that the ties occurred. And require each shooter at the shoot to spend 15 minutes each day helping the management (sweep the porch, load one trap, pull/score one round, cover the practice trap for a short time, find the shooters tied for Class B and take them to the practice trap for a shoot off). This would reduce the work of the volunteer management, the shoot would run smoother and everyone would be happy.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Gary Waalks first paragraph says a lot!! There's the shift worker getting to shoot a few targets in a limited time frame. The working guy that can only get away for a day or two. We wonder why our sport hasn't grown much? Our larger shoots are 5 to 7 days of shooting several hundred targets. The MO of these type of shoots are geared toward those who can shoot practically every target for economic reasons said above.

    Those part time shooters are usually B,C and D class shooters, that's why I said above it would be better if those guys could have their shot at some recognition on their "hot" day, while it's going on. They may be on fire today and totally fizzle out tomorrow, if they could be there again. Back at the job, he's asked how he did. I was on fire and broke my first 100 straight!! Great shooting, did you win? No, I couldn't stay for the carry-over today. That sure sux, maybe you should try a different sport? And so it goes.

    Hap
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Hap- Your idea is based on logic but things could get complicated. Two B shooter who shot 100 would likely be tied for high gun with several other A and AA shooters. How would that work?

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Pat, those two shooters can bank their targets toward more carry-overs or HAA, HOA should they continue shooting the program. Then too, they may choose the regular carry-over route rather than face off with the guy having the hottest day of his shooting life also? Shooting the telephonic zone shoots, shooters can bank targets when there's a possibility for an award? I'd think we'd want that guy to continue shooting rather than finding another sport or hobby to spend his time and money on? We've lost way too many of those part time shooters as it is! If we continue depending on all the guys pre-squadding for every event around the country sustaining ATA, we're all gonna lose. Clubs are closing at an alarming rate and we're not helping much with our shooting agenda to attract and hold those shooters. A round trip ticket on the Titanic isn't the bargain it once was?

    Hap
     
  20. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    When we shot ATA, we were struck with the fact that there were quite a number of policies and procedures that were in place for the benefit of management and the organizers. Who is the ATA really supposed to benefit?

    Lister
     
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