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Appeal for civility a waste of time

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by mtimney, Oct 18, 2012.

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  1. mtimney

    mtimney TS Member

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    I recently addressed the TS community by asking for civility in political discussions. Well... it was a complete and total waste of time.

    One of the great ideals in history is the concept of a "free marketplace of ideas," proposed at various times and various ways by John Milton, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Thomas Jefferson, and others from various political ideologies. This ideal so inspired the founders of our country that they created The First Amendment, in large part, to make the marketplace robust. And now the internet has allowed this marketplace potential in ways that no other mass medium, or any other method, ever has before.

    And what have we done with it? Read through the political discussion threads and you'll see the answer. It's a marketplace all right--in the middle of a food fight. Differences in opinion are almost always met with immediate and total derision and there's little, if any, reasoned discourse. It's all a bunch of rotten tomatoes flying back and forth.

    Our founders were not always calm, rational men. They too were occasionally hot-headed and unreasonable, but I bet they would be appalled to see what's become of their marketplace ideal. We should be ashamed.

    Mark T
     
  2. Don Steele

    Don Steele Well-Known Member

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    Mark...I'm not one little bit ashamed of being a bit of a "hot-head" when I see a movement attacking the very foundation of my country. When I see the RADICAL LEFT WING ZEALOTS doing everything they can to FUNDAMENTALLY TRANSFORM AMERICA ( Obama's words...NOT mine). When I see our President tell us he will "TAKE THAT MONEY...and spread it around" after HE DECIDES what is "fair" and when YOU have "enough". No, I'm not one bit ashamed of being a bit of a hot-head. There's NO obligation to negotiate with stupid (you don't negotiate with a 3 yr old do you...??), and there's NO OBLIGATION to negotiate with EVIL. You don't try to have a "Reasoned discourse" with Hitler, Stalin, or any other despot. I'm not going to take time trying to decide which of those represent the current administration and it's adherents...but I'm pretty sure it's one or the other.
    Mark, No offense meant by this response to you personally. I'm sorry to say it, but THEY declared war on ME. When they won the 2008 election and were asked how they planned to work with the opposition, the response was F*CK'em, WE WON.
    OK..I get it. But it cuts BOTH WAYS.
     
  3. over/under

    over/under Member

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    Just how was Obamacare passed?
     
  4. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    No one takes you seriously, perfessor. You show up spewing your liberal crap right before the election, pretending to be a conservative gun owner. We've seen this every election cycle. You want civility perhaps you need to infiltrate a different website.

    And if you're going to cite Jefferson in your civility cause, note that civility is not a requirement for free speech rights. As a professor one would think you'd know that.

    And when someone advocates taking my rights away, I'm not going to bother to be civil about it. Especially when they don't understand the Constitution or Bill of Rights or SCOTUS decisions.
     
  5. mtimney

    mtimney TS Member

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    Thank you Brian in Oregon for proving my point even better than I did. I really, really appreciate the irony that resides in your post. I don't think you have a grasp on the point of our constitution or SCOTUS decisions. They represent the extension of the free marketplace of ideas.

    By the way, Brian.... just to show you how poor your conclusions are... google my name and learn about me. You might want to look at my work as an outdoor writer. Besides writing for magazines like Bowhunting World and others for about a 10-year period before becoming a professor, I was also a big contributor for bowsite.com, one of the most popular hunting sites on the web. Here's the search info: Mark Timney the practical bowhunter. I've been a gun owner, hunter and outdoorsman all my life... and an ATA member since I was 11. This will, however, be the first year I've registered targets since '76 or '77.

    Don... Our founders were hot-heads too. And, no I don't think you can negotiate with Hitler types. But the founders tried to negotiate with England for some time before they went to war. And we're not talking about genocide here on TS. Passion is fine, but it shouldn't interfere with your thinking. I don't like Obama, and I sure don't like the idea that he's going to support AWB, but do you really think he's hurt, or could hurt, the country any worse than Bush did.

    Mark
     
  6. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Mark,

    If what I have found to be true, politics never has been civil.

    When you go back in time and study things written and said about candidates, to candidates and what voters said to each other, they were just as foul and dirty, perhaps more so than now.

    Rome used to settle their poltical disputes with daggers.

    Perhaps it is a symptom of the current climate? You cannot engage in class warfare, pitting American against American and not expect the whole mess to blow up our faces.
     
  7. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    "but do you really think he's hurt, or could hurt, the country any worse than Bush did."


    I'll answer is as simple terms as possible, so even a Prof. can understand(I hope) Bush was a American, Obo has not proven who he is, but has proven himself to be a communist/socialist. And that is being NICE.

    And you forget who pass's the laws, Congress and the Senate, then you watch the SCOTUS screw it up!

    If the Founders were "hot heads" count me as one of them! They at least were Men of great Character and Resolve! Take the time to read the Declaration, sloooowly and let it sink in. The King and the Greatest nation on earth at the time! IS who they were defying. There would be no "Loosing" it HAD to be a WIN.
     
  8. WS-1

    WS-1 Banned User Banned

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    Hey Rick,

    It was cool here last night. We're getting a few days of Indian Summer but they're calling for rain by the weekend. The crows are back.
     
  9. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and I have seen a whole lot of geese here and that means cold weather for sure. We already have snow in the mountains, and my bones ache like hell.
     
  10. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Cold front blew through last night cooled down to 49, but it's warming up nicely today, I need to go build some bumpers for the new pontoon we are getting Sunday, don't want to ding it up on the dock
     
  11. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    What was your first clue?
     
  12. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    It's a beautiful day here, 77 degrees. Need a good rain though.
     
  13. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    We Are Not Worthy.


    Please forgive us, Great One. We cannot help ourselves. You cast your pearls before swine.



    Tch, tch...Siggghhhh. What will ever become of us?
     
  14. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Bush hurt this country? Excuse me, but in what way, perfessor? The economy was going fine under Bush UNTIL the Dems got back in control of congress. Take a good look at the time line. Then take a good look at who was behind the Fanny Mae disaster. Barney Frank. And Obama has spent more money and had more troops killed under him in less time in Afghanistan that Bush.
     
  15. mtimney

    mtimney TS Member

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    Brian in Oregon....

    The economy crashed before Obama took office. Check your facts and the timeline. Both parties had a role in it. I'm not defending what Obama has done...it could have been done better.

    As for Afghanistan... I agree that Obama hasn't done a very good job, but Bush wasn't doing so well either. And it wasn't Obama that put us in Iraq for no legitimate reason.

    Buzz Gunn-- Once again you've proved the point of my thread. You're a master of irony!

    Mark T.
     
  16. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    You're right. It was congress that approved the war on terror, and approved the funding. And it was a partisan congress.
     
  17. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I know the facts and timelines. Pity you do not, or are deliberately twisting them.

    It was Bush'41 who put us in Iraq. And it was the incompetent and impotent UN that caused us to go back and finish the job. Even Hillary thought we needed to finish the job and voted for it, after Bill "Neville Chamberlain" Clinton wouldn't do anything meaningful to make Saddam comply with UN directives. His failure more than anything set up the dominoes. Along with failing to take out bin Laden. The only thing wrong with the war is that we didn't roll right on into Iran, followed by Syria if they continued to allow insurgents to violate their border. Assuming they weren't aiding them, which they probably were.

    Barney Frank and friends set this whole economic house of cards in motion by devising a way to get votes by forcing banks to not discriminate against people who could not afford to pay their mortgages. Bush is on record criticizing the new regulations.

    And somehow you think Obama is better than Bush? There's no way you are a conservative if you believe that.
     
  18. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Mark

    It seems you are asking for civility, yet you like all your other apologist friends for Obama continue to stir this stuff up, while leaving out little inconvenient truths along the way.

    We went to war with Iraq because;

    We had just suffered the most dvestating attack on our homeland in our entire history. We were scared, hurt and seeking revenge.

    Saddam Hussein was giving off false information that he was still promoting advance of WMD's even after he was prohibited from doing so after Desert Storm.

    This false info was picked up by the CIA, NSA, the State Dept, Interpol, MI5 and even Mossad. All of these intel agencies came to the same conclusion that Hussein was working on and was very close to WMD's

    We knew from history, Saddam would and did use WMD's including those he used on his own people.

    Because Hussein prohibited inspections as called for and other violations in the treaty, the UN voted that Iraq should be punished.

    The entire Congress, with the exception of one or two people voted in favor of war, based on that false intel.

    It turns out later Hussein was giving off this false info about WMD's because he was more afraid of Iran than the US and other members of the UN.

    Iraq was also a training state for terrorists and we know he gave aid and shelter to some we were looking for. I don't suppose you remember the airliner they used for training in airplane hijacking, do you? We had satellite photos of the airliner and the training camps.

    Yes Bush ran up the debt, but it was because of the fear that gripped this nation and everybody in it demanding vengence and protection from further attacks.

    When Bush was in his last two years of office the House and the Senate was taken over by the Democrats and spending soared at a faster rate than ever, including the bills they passed due to the financial panic induced in part to the housing market crash brought on by people who bought homes way over their head.

    After Obama took office, instead of stopping the bleeding, he increased the debt and spent more money than all the Presidents combined before him with his Democrat held House and Senate. He got measures passed that were contrary to the public wants and needs one, was the Stimulus bill that provides lot of money to green energy companies, some that went broke and found later to be controlled by big Obama supporters. Do you know the meaning of the term "slush fund"? How about cronyism?

    He got Affordable Healthcare passed that now that we got a chance to read it, it by itself, is capable of bankrupting this country.

    He took over GM, robbed the bond holders and then proceeded to turn control over to the Union, after firing the President of GM and appointed his own man. He repeated this act of terrorism on a few lessor businesses, again turning over control to his supporters. If Bain Capitol did this, they would all be imprisoned for theft.


    Many people who have been a victim of Obama's failed policies of the last four years are getting damned tired of hearing " it's Bush's fault".

    Obama failed to turn this country around using the unproven Keynesian economics theory, the true "trickle down" theory. A lot of people are going to think about this when they go to the polls, or fill in their mailin ballot. They will be reminiscing about the job they loved and lost, the home they loved and lost, their kid working at McDonalds, who they spent a fortune on for a college education and or have some heavy student loan bills to payoff. They will think on the fact they cannot afford gas for their car and have to eat beans and franks to make their welfare check go just a little further until they get their next check. The old mans unemployment ran out, mom is working two part time jobs. Their 401 is gone and so is the hope they were promised four years ago.

    Bush was not on the ballot I mailed back this week, Romney was and I don't think any halfway intelligent voters will be thinking about Bush either when they cast their vote.

    Bush ran up the debt mostly because of fear that followed 9/11 and wars we waged, seeking revenge. Obama ran a greater debt in pursuit if his socialist utopia.


    Obama has only his record to run on, and that is why he is going to be out of office next January!
    Count on it, and if you want some respect, stop the cry baby routine "it's Bush's fault for the mess Obama inherited."
     
  19. lel4866

    lel4866 Member

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    There you go... Rick Barker's detailed, civil response.

    But you don't think I'd stop at a single sentence post...

    Rick -

    Keynesian economics is not the problem here...just the incorrect application of it. There are 2 parts you have to follow: 1) Deficit spending during recessions, and 2) Spend less than you take in during good times (create a surplus for the bad times).

    This is classic negative feedback, that works so well in electronics in things like amplifier circuits. The problem is, we only do 1). This is positive feedback. It causes amplifiers to blow up.
     
  20. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    If Keynesian were to work properly, you would have to have a 100% co-operative or a dictatorial control that would push all aspects of it in a straight line course.

    With thousands of cooks around the pot (congress, special interests along with their lobbyists) and their self interests at heart, I don't see it working, this we have already witnessed.

    The 300 million souls that inhabit this country, will never act as one mind. Both a curse and a blessing living in a representive republic.

    Freedom is not free nor is it painless.

    I will take supply side economics anytime. It does not promote nor support the manufacture and distibution of horse shoes and buggy whips that people have no use for. It was tried in Russia, it did not work.
     
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