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Anyone received an ordered ButlerXX12 yet?

27K views 124 replies 41 participants last post by  grntitan 
#1 ·
Just wondering if the Bulter XX 12's have started to ship yet. Anybody got one yet?
I sure like the design and would like to try one. With the shoulder problems I have and more discs in my neck giving me trouble, the idea of very little felt recoil would be nice. It looks as if it could truly be a one gun for all three clay target games. Larry
 
#102 ·
SURFER,
I have fired many engineers that think just like you do..it's Ok to be late and over the price target as long as you have a good excuse. A true pro makes contingency plans and reacts early when problems arise. You have the attitude of a....loser.....SMOKIT
 
#103 ·
Smokit,
I think you've been smoking it, keep rolling those big fatties.........

If you're truely a manufacturer, then you know how difficult it is to birth a new product from idea to conception to prototype engineering to prototype to production engineering to production line engineering to packaging engineering to shipping to marketing to sales and of course financing.

All large companies started small with an idea and grew themselves from that point forward, there is not one manfacturing company anywhere who has not encountered problems listed above, not one. You can rattle your saber and pound your chest all you want about how great your company is, but if you manufacture, problems are part and parcel of that business and don't try to tell me otherwise because I stood on the front line for forty years defending, deflecting those manufacturing missteps.


Surfer
 
#106 ·
(I enter this discussion with many reservations.)

"...a successful product at a reasonable price point." Am I alone in thinking $9,500 is a pretty high price point for a gun like this? How many guns does this price point bring into the competition?

Maybe Dennis Devault could weigh in on how the $9,000 +/- price of the Infinity affected the number of units sold.

You could buy two of the Fabarms gun and have $4,500 left over for shooting? Or a nice K-gun or P-gun combo and have money left over.

Danny
 
#108 ·
With the onset of CNC and other technological equipment, a whole host of people gave it a go at fulfilling their dream of actually bringing their idea into reality.

What we witnessed in the clay target arena this last decade or so was a blush of new single barreled target guns thanks to the above mentioned technolgies. All were similar but different from each other in certain ways and all were aimed at a very narrow band of shooters constrained by price.

I would say all of these new manufacturers found the same thing, true costs of building and selling their products were well and above projected costs causing some to quietly recind from the market for lack of profit or hitting the price ceiling.

Butler appears to have a revolutionary product aimed mainly at an aging population who are looking for and are willing to pay for a product to extend their shooting experience due to recoil issues. A suggested price of $12,000 is not out of line when compared to a combo P or K gun.

I'm pulling for Butler, I like thinkers, inventors, risk takers, doer's, its what made this country greatest place on earth.

Surfer
 
#109 ·
Someone is smoking crack if they think they can actually sell these for $12,500, about the same price as a factory new Krieghoff, Kolar, or Perazzi combo (and you can get custom wood on any for a little more).

$7500 was at the high end of reasonable, but possible given the new technology, ect. $12500 is beyond ludicrous.

Buy an 1100/391/other autoloader, have an adjustable rib put on, trick the gun out to the max, have a custom stock made and a soft touch/g squared/similar recoil reducer installed, and you'll still be at about 1/5 the cost of a Butler, and similar or lower recoil.
 
#110 ·
Most reports from people who have shot the butler say it's absolutley a soft shooter points well and has a great trigger, all the things you look for in a great target gun.

One of the toughest parts of manufacturing is holding quality and price to the same standard. Butler was not designed to be a every mans gun, It's aimed at a narrow audience just like a Bowen, Alferman and the other specialty target guns. Some people see the value in a Ferrari others don't its just a car to them.

Only time will tell if there is the market they hoped for.

Surfer
 
#111 ·
The problem is that its in the same price range (or more expensive) than a new "Bowen, Alferman and the other specialty target guns". No matter how you dress it up, its still an autoloader. It will take a complete paradigm shift for clay target shooters to consider ANY autoloader to be on par with the top break action shotguns. Silver Seitz could come out with an autoloader tomorrow, and they still wouldn't command the same price as a Seitz single barrel or o/u.

Side note- Just checked the price of the Seitz single barrel. MSRP is $100 less than MSRP of the Butler. How many people are going to buy a Butler over a Seitz if they could afford either. I doubt many.
 
#114 ·
The Marketplace is made up of wants and needs, there's plenty of products priced beyond what most people consider justifiable for what they offer in return for money spent.

There's a great number of people who think A,B,I,K and P guns are all over priced and unnecessary to do the task at hand, yet they all these brands found willing buyers.

No question Automatics are not as well received as in Sporting Clays where they are a mainstay, but for some trap shooters automatics offer a solution to health issues by way of reduced recoil and that alone puts a gun like the Butler in a unique position. Does this mean Butlers will sell like hot cakes at current pricing, no it means they will have sales to those who see a Butler as a way to fill their wants or needs or both.


Surfer
Time will tell where Butler will land in the scheme of trap shooting.
 
#116 ·
Orange Crate,
We can dice this six ways to Sunday, people who have shot a Butler talk about how good it feels how well it points and how soft it shoots and what a great trigger it has. There's nothing unique about a Krieghoff as an example, it's just a dolled up model 32 Remington from the 30's and can be compared to a Browning Citori as far as function, yet they are priced world's apart.

As far as Browning's recoiless is concerned having owned a 30" rendition, I can say from my view it was to heavy in the wrong part of the gun killing its dynamics, however it was a soft shooter, my opinion of why it never caught on which is subjective like everyone's.

Obviously your one of those people who can't see the value in a Butler and would never be their customer, nothing wrong with that, you're probably happy with your Citori or 682 and in stock recoil reducer and that's all you require to meet your needs or wants.

Surfer
 
#120 ·
$12,500 bucks could buy me a lot of B-303s with enuff cash left over to shoot more than I possibly could! We'll see how that new idea of an introductory price of $9500.00 goes over too? As good of a semi-auto it happens to be, it's still a semi-auto. I had hopes for this company in the beginning but am having serious doubts after the sell-off and the inflated suggested price. They may sell a couple but this grand idea ain't gonna fly very far very soon!

Hap
 
#122 ·
We're kind of jumping to conclusions here. Remember the thing about the price
increase is just something that was posted here that someone heard from somebody
else - maybe accurate, maybe not. As far as the change of ownership, that was
just speculation on my part - though I think it probably occurred. If it did,
that likely means there's been an unflux of capital, which may have saved the
company.

What might occur, and you hope it doesn't,is that the company files a chapter
11 or 7, and the patents and equipment are sold by the trustee in essentially a pre-arranged sale. If that happens, the people who put up the deposits are relegated to unsecured creditors, and probably are out of luck.


So, it's not dead yet. We'll have to wait and see.
 
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