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Anyone interested in Daro's book?

Discussion in 'For Sale- Members only' started by joe kuhn, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Slight curling of pages. $20 includes postage.


    [​IMG]
     
  2. slickhead

    slickhead Active Member

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    NO!!!!!!
     
  3. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Sold via PM.
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I liked the book a lot, though mine has apparently fallen through a crack somewhere.

    It differs from most books by well-known trap shooters and coaches in that it explicitly assumes you will want to know where the gun is when it goes off and your job is to put it in that correct, consciously-known, place. This is counter to the party line almost everywhere including here and even more so on the friendliest site.

    I've been told by two lady shooters who read it that it was a revelation which lead them to finally begin to hit lot of targets, serving as "official permission" to shoot trap in a way that worked - and made sense - for them.

    I've always wondered why instructional videos for Sporting Clays (for example) produced by the stars of that sport were so clearly about pointing the gun in a specific relation to the target while those for trap are about other things, mostly.

    As I have moved to senior vet I find that "shooting them with my eyes" doesn't work anymore and Daro's approach makes more and more sense to me.

    Neil
     
  5. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I guess I've not gotten there yet. Eyes on target, fire when the gun crosses where you're looking - still works for me.
     
  6. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I did read the book and I'm still not able to verbalize what Daro's talking about. I just don't get it. When I first started shooting I was aiming - trying to line up the gun with the target. Then I started watching the targets and firing when my gun got there, but kept eyes on. Paying direct attention to the gun seems like a step backwards to me.
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Well at the very least, Joe, you will have to agree that the book has the only written discussion of the minutest details of release triggers and should be a great help to those who use them.

    For those lucky long-long -time trapshooters like me who are still pulling the trigger it is a warning of what is always waiting just off-stage, sometimes peeking around the curtain, hoping for a cue. I just hope that cue never comes.

    Neil
     
  8. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Hmm, p. 93-97. Ok.
     
  9. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    Just curious Joe, what are the background like at most clubs you shoot?

    Thanks,
    Ajax
     
  10. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    One is all green grass and trees. They throw all orange targets. Another has brown field, green trees and sky and they throw orange targets with a black rim. Why?
     
  11. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    Joe,

    Hard focus on the target is ok when your sub-conscious mind has the sight picture right. I have found that if I have a very hard focus and miss I have no idea were I missed.

    I now try to focus on the target but be aware of where the Meadow Industry's Vari-Brite-Site III is. This sight has helped me because of a weak dominate eye. The fiber optic sight helps me from not looking at it, because I know were it is, glowing out there. I just move the glow bead to the target and shoot. This way I now know were I miss.

    Jason
     
  12. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Good thread...
     
  13. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Jason, Good comment showing how different solutions are needed for different shooters. Thanks for your note.

    Still not sure why slick is so adamant.
     
  14. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    The reason I asked, I believe the back ground and weather condition matter. On a nice clear day and a sky back ground I use the eyes lock on method and am not really conscious on the barrel.

    On a "normal" day in the Pacific Northwest. It's cloudy or raining. We have Evergreen Trees and they are usually very dense with many shadows. The target may travel through 4 or more different backgrounds before I break the target. I do pay attention to the barrel on those days. I don't thinks it's an all or nothing. In certain circumstances, both shooting styles have merit.

    Ajax
     
  15. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Can you describe the barrel attending method?
     
  16. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Almost everyone learned to shoot before gun cameras have been available. With them there is no question where one is shooting, and what they are doing wrong.
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I can Joe.

    You look for something. Your eye catches it and you look at at.

    You move the gun (I have a nice, bright Varisight III bead so it stands out like like a red-rot scope.) to a place variably ahead of the target depending on the angle and distance. The gun goes off.

    The point is, you know exactly what the horizontal and vertical relationship between the gun and the target was when the gun went off.

    Apologists for the "break them with your eyes (or faith or Karma or Kryptonite)" version of trapshooting tell me (and anyone else foolish enough to listen) that I'm not "really" aiming. But I am. On 90+ percent of the shots, the others being the ones where I move too fast and lose the bead but they usually break too.

    At Metro today (again) I compared aiming and "not aiming." I missed one more (the first target) aiming, and switched techniques several times in 100 or so. The score was the the same, but the breaks were far better aiming.

    I really think that all this "don't see the gun" hokum is an example of the madness of crowds. Aiming may not break a Grand winning score, but for levels of competition under that, it's right in there.

    The amazing thing to me is the vehemence with which people decry aiming. I think that must have been so brainwashed at the start that they can't think straight.

    My favorite example was over on the friendliest site a month or two ago.(link above) Someone reported that his or her gun shot way too high. A responder who signed on as Coach Super-X or something assured the person that the only plan to follow was not to fix the gun but to just shoot it until his or her "subconscious" would work it out.

    Though that seemed to me to be the stupidest possible advice that the poor victim could have been given. But as I remember, hardly anyone one on the friendliest site took much exception to it or was able to offer a better plan - other than getting a coach! The OP's gun shot unbelievably high at what must have been about 15 feet, not the 15 yards he reported which no one noticed!. And the the poor guy _thanked_ Coach Super-X!

    The only possible good advice would have been to seriously find out if what we were shown (in the photo) were true. That's all. And that's easy. Shoot it at paper up close off a rest. If it really shoots there way high at 15 feet - dump it and get something you might have a chance of hitting something with. Contrast that with: "Just don't do it! Quit consciously seeing the rib AT ALL when you are shooting and it will not be a problem. Your subconscious LIKES the sloping rib, or is indifferent.????!!!" Give me a break!

    That's the kind of BS the not-seeing-the-gun hardliners shovel out all the time! What could be worse?

    That's how awful things are around gun clubs and on the web. 6000 shooters join the ATA every year and 6000 quit. I checked a few years ago and the ones that quit never got anywhere scorewise. They stayed in D, got zero or one punches, never got better.

    I'm convinced that all they needed was reality-based instruction. It didn't have to be an All-American, just some trap kid who knew what was going on could have kept them in the game. Someone to tell them "Put the bead on the bird when the target is mostly straight, a _little_ ahead when it's an angle. I'll look over your shoulder and we can work out the vertical together but start about at the bird, up and down. "

    Instead we have people calling themselves coaches telling people who don't like the place their guns shoot to get over it.

    It's a sad, sad world.

    Neil
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    "Put the bead on the bird when the target is mostly straight, a _little_ ahead when it's an angle. I'll look over your shoulder and we can work out the vertical together but start about at the bird, up and down."

    I like that Neil. I like it a lot. It's simple, easy to understand and void of the standard line that's often dished out.

    I've come to the conclusion that people are not good translators. It's not that they don't know how to shoot. They do. They just can't translate it into words so we get weird stuff like - get your gun to shoot where you look. What does that mean? I struggled myself for quite a while just being able to describe what I think I do so that I might tell somebody else. Let me try it out on you.

    Here's what I do: I look at the target and when the gun goes across where I'm looking I pull the trigger. I take care to keep moving the gun through the target which gives me the lead I need. I use my peripheral vision to see the gun's bead cross the target, never looking directly at the bead or in my case the reticle.

    I'm not shooting that well lately, so I'm questioning what I do. I'm smoking the daylights out of a lot of targets, but I'll miss 1 or 2 or 3 or even 4 per round. Clean misses. I'm thinking I need to get out in front a little more, hence my interest in your method here. I've avoided the temptation to change my poi because I do smoke 'em real hard when move through the target and everything is lined up well. Hm.

    I've stopped going to the gym and that's big for me, especially with my heavy gun. That can be fixed.

    Later.

    Joe
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    "It should shoot where you look" is what's called a shibboleth, a meaningless set of syllables which identify your tribe, in this case, shotgun cognoscenti or newbie.

    It's not just meaningless; it's wrong. What you would need, if you could ever figure out how to get there, is a gun which shoots where you will be looking in 0.14 seconds at long-handicap. _Not_ where you are looking now though the whole idea is so worthless it's hardly worth making fun of.

    As a flat out and unapologetic aimer, I have a pretty good idea what leads are needed.

    At singles.

    Posts 2,3,4: just shooting at them, horizontally, is as good a plan as any. You will get terrific breaks and you don't have to get your imaginary mental computer involved at all, which is desirable since it does not exist.

    On posts 1 and 5, get ahead a little only on the hard angle. . You can break a lot/most just shooting at them, (even the hard angles) but the odds favor a little ahead on those (few, on a Pat-Trap) straightaways from 1 1/3 and 4 and 2/3.

    As you move to long yardage, I think you have to get more ahead of the max angles. From 3, "at them" works. 2 and 4 somewhere in between, I think, though, aiming is a huge, perhaps killing, disadvantage at long yardage. Not because it's inaccurate, but because it's too slow.

    But that's not the case at singles. Frank Hoppe always said you can take as much time as you need from the 16-yard line. "The target is never going to get away."

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil
     
  20. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Phew. I thought the problem was here:


    [​IMG]


    You're the second person to mention Frank to me today.

    Is there some kind of a compiled works of Franks writings? I'd buy that in a heart beat. I took Frank's class once and really liked it, although I don't remember the video as being that remarkable, but maybe that's ok. In his clinic, he told me to lean forward just a little when I set up, but I forgot right away, so he came up behind me and pushed on my back to make his point. Now I intentionally lean forward when the guy ahead of me shoots - so I don't forget.

    I wish I could go to a range and practice putting the bead a little ahead of the bird on angles.

    Joe
     
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