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Any reason to use magnum shot vs chilled ?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Neil Winston, Nov 28, 2008.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    For one thing, NSXER, it depends on the brand. Lawrence, West Coast, Remington - when they stamp "magnum" on a bag, that's what's in it. With Eagle, for example, it doesn't mean much. Others may or may not turn out as planned.

    Hard shot is any with over 1/2 percent antimony. Top-brand hard shot has a lot more.

    Soft shot works fine for singles.

    Neil
     
  2. trapshootingfran

    trapshootingfran TS Member

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    NSXER, I have always used magnum or hard shot because I live in the north where it gets really cold. Also in western NY quite a few clubs use a target that is super hard to break in the summer or winter.
    It is simpler to reload one kind of shot for short or long range. Happy shooting. FRAN
     
  3. Trap4

    Trap4 Member

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    Chilled is fine for skeet as the targets are close--but for trap use magnum.

    Trap-4
     
  4. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I've used everything from Star to Remingtom, and everything in-between. But, never used reclaimed or homemade. Saying that, I've never seen a spit's worth of difference between any of them from the 16-27 yards. If there is a difference, after 30+ years of reloading I've not encountered it. So, I buy the cheapest new shot I can find.
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    shot410ga- What have you done to detect any possible difference? How do your 30 and 40 yard patterns with Eagle and West Coast shot compare?

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

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    If the price is close I'll pick the magnum but I will also use the chilled without any reservations at all........the difference is minimal as far as I'm concerned.
     
  7. Frye

    Frye TS Member

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    I use whatever I can get my hands on. Typically, I shoot West Coast Magnum 7.5 shot in the winter. Locally, this is about all you can get IF you can find it.
    Get's Darn cold here. I have one load for all games and I'm very pleased with it. 19 grains of Clays, Windjammer wad, STS hull and Win209 primer. In the summer, I mix half new shot with reclaim and I can't tell the difference in the breaks when I do my part. I use 7.5 or 8 shot in the spring and summer.
    I gather it doesn't make much difference but 7.5 is usually the last to sell out so that's what I end up with. Right now, I'm OUT of Everything, Shot, powder, wads etc so while I wait for the stuff to come in, I've been shooting Estate 3 dram 7.5. No complaints with that load, it stinks to high heaven and kicks alot harder than my loads but they can reach out there.
     
  8. ken a

    ken a Member

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    A bump only = a loss. If you smoke them all no problem, my .02
     
  9. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    Only use magnum shot if you want more pellets in the load and on the target.At the often short yardages of trap and skeet it can be tough to see the difference. Using larger shot such as that used in the field (Lead #4 and Lead #6) you will very quickly see the difference on a pattern board at 45 yards. That said I use the hardest shot I can get for everything including skeet, first shot in doubles and shooting 16 yard targets. Jeff
     
  10. M-16

    M-16 TS Member

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    Hardshot verses soft. If the shot gets deformed or was it has a better chance of being a flyer. My brother and I have done a lot of testing for fox hunting, and did paterns on 4*4' paper at 50,55,& 60yds. also added phone books to check pentetration. We've shoot buffered shells and used mag, and nickel coated polished shot. The nickel coated always had the least amount of flyers, but is too expensive for trap. We've put over a 1000 round on paper looking for the best loads. Fox hunting has been like each shot is for a fifty dollar bill as that is what the hides have been worth. Miss one fox and he is even smarter and harder to kill nexted time.
     
  11. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Pat: I have not found any difference in patterns as far as percentages are concerned except with wads and powder changes. Regardless of the shot I use the percentages seem to be the same. And, I found no differance in the way the target breaks from one shot manfacturer to another. But, to each, his own. That's just the way I feel.
     
  12. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Jim Kneecricket: I guess your're some kind of "Big Dog"? You must know many, many things because of all your detailed testing.........RIGHT, get a life BOZO.
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Here's what I wrote a while ago. Incidentally, the text below serves as a retraction of an earlier assertion I made to Cowboy John, who I thought at the time was wrong but testing proved was right.

    "Last spring a poster shot some patterns with hard and soft shot and said he couldn’t tell the difference by looking at them.

    I noted that in order to test hard vs. soft you need test that part – how “soft” or “hard” the pellets actually are - of the experiment first. I also predicted that once that is done, you will be able to tell by looking most of the time.

    This experiment tests soft and hard shot and compared their patterns.

    The Shot:

    Lawrence chilled 8’s crushed an average of 0.29 inches using my drop-test apparatus. This is about as soft as you can buy.

    Remington magnum 8’s crushed an average of 0.22 inches using my drop-test apparatus. This is about as hard as you can buy.

    Two other brands of magnum-labeled shot crushed 0.025 and 0.024 respectively, which is why you have to test it.

    The Test:

    Eleven-hundred-fifty foot per second shells were loaded with the two kinds of shot, using Red Dot and changing only the shot. Since the use of soft shot is commonly singles, 10 patterns were shot using each through the bottom barrel of a Perazzi O/U with a “factory” 0.028” choke. The distance was 34 yards, again to simulate singles. Patterns were photographed and analyzed with Shotgun-insight software.

    Results:

    The first question was whether you can see a difference. An uninvolved observer who didn’t know the theory compared 7 pairs of patterns, one hard, one soft. In 4 cases he said the hard-shot patterns were more dense, in three he saw no difference. As I compare them after computer analysis, the first pattern with the first of the other group, the second with the second and so on, I see six where the hard-shot patterns are more dense, three with no difference, and one where the soft-shot pattern looks denser.

    Conclusion: I wouldn’t count on telling them apart by eye alone, but if I had to make a guess, I’d be right more often than wrong most of the time. This is not a strong advocacy for either a big difference between them or the ability of the eye to tell you much. All in all, I’d say my claim that I could tell them apart was said with more certainly last spring than I feel now.

    Detailed Analysis:

    [​IMG]


    As the title of the graph says, hard-shot patterns are more concentrated in the center and have higher total percentages as well. Soft shot puts 24% of its pellets in the 20- to 30-inch ring, compared to 20+% for the other type. Though the difference is not statistically significant I think the picture shows it happens more often than not, roughly speaking.

    Looking at it using a different metric, the diameter which would hold 75% of the shot is 24+ inches with soft shot, 21+ inches with the hard. This number is not entirely valid when some shot “lost,” that is, doesn’t appear anywhere on the paper but the difference here is big enough to pay attention to.

    In summary, both taken together, it’s apparent that the theory that using soft shot will “open patterns” is supported by this experiment.

    Discussion and conclusion: All these patterns looked pretty good; I wouldn’t worry about any of the 20 of them. Are they as good as they look?

    There is another statistic in the Shotgun Insight program, the probability of a pellet hit in various areas of the patterns. In the inner 10 inches, they are all either 100% or close enough to not make any difference. Looking at other areas they are all practically identical as well.

    Trusting the probability data, and I do, I think that though the hard shot would give “more smoke,” the scores shot by these two shells would be the same.

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil"

    © NMW
     
  14. Little Dog

    Little Dog TS Member

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    So the bottom line is that shot410ga is the bozo instead of cricket.
     
  15. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Littledog: Bottom line is you can't read, and know nothing about marketing either. Every thread you open your mouth too, brings out the real BOZO in your less than simple brain. Do you know anything about trap shooting or anything else? I suspect not, airhead, troll, or whatever you may be, other than a trapshooter.
     
  16. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the work Mr. Winston put in to provide hard data on this subject. Thank you Mr. Winston.

    I also agree with magnum shot on the mind game part.
     
  17. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    At 34 yards I suspect anything you run down the barrel will work. I have shot many limits of mallards with my 28ga with #7 shot. The one thing all those ducks had in common was range. 35 yards or so. I will go far as too say I can kill the biggest Canada goose that flies with 7 1/2's at 34 yards. I don't care about 34 yards. My concern is for 45 yards and beyond and when you pattern at that distance ray Charles can tell the diffrence between chilled and magnum grade shot. 15 yards is what it is all about folks! Under 35 yards anything will work but 45 and out you will be well served to buy the hardest shot you can afford. Jeff
     
  18. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    I'd be interested to see the results of Neil's test done at 40 yard distance.

    That may either answer some questions, or open some eyes.
     
  19. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    If Neil had done it at 40yds someone would have said 50 or he should have used #6 shot. Happens every time. The results would probably have been the same.
     
  20. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    Jerryp. Since I have been patterning shotguns for over 25 years I can tell you that the results will not be the same. There are other things done with a shotgun besides shooting 16 yard trap targets and it is these aplications where shot hardness is crucial. If the title was is there any diffrence? Instead of is there any reason to use magnum VS chilled. I would not have bothered to respond. There is a huge reason to use magnum grade shot for many things. He didn't ask if there was any reason to use it for trapshooting! When you shoot "Games " at trap where the target may be 65 plus yards away the diffrence between chilled shot and High Antimony shot is seen on the pattern board but it requires going out there and shooting patterns. It is far easier for some folks to just parrot what they have heard. I have counted the holes in a pattern board at 60 yards so I know better! Jeff
     
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