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Another Rules Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Aug 21, 2007.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    A well established club rebuilt one trap house two years ago. The walkways were not changed. During construction, things got a little mixed up and the house ended up about 1.5 feet closer to the 16 yard line. Does that mean all targets shot from that field should be disqualified?

    And, how many shooters have taken the time to confirm that the 16 yard line is really 16 yards from point B and that the handicap yardage markers between the 16 yard line and the 27 yard line are accurately marked. Is it possible that there is not always 33 feet between the 16 and the 27 on each post?

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't think going back two years would be feasible. Seems like all the yardages are wrong too. Looks like some painted stripes are in order to be a legal field.
     
  3. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Pat, I suspect that you are speaking of an actual case and not one of your hypothetical questions to allow us to demonstrate our lack of common sense or knowledge of the rules. The reason I think you are speaking of an actual case is because of the 18" dimension. In the rush to get a house rebuilt I can see that happening. I may be wrong but I believe that it does not qualify as a "legal" field. Easy to correct by repainting lines as 320090T suggests. To go back and remove all scores shot there for a two year period could obviously create some problems for a large group of shooters. Shoot well,Bob H.
     
  4. Gargoyle!

    Gargoyle! TS Member

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    OK the house is closer. But is the thrower closer? The house is suppose to be within a certon size and the ATA has it in the book. Did the club just up grade the house to the ATA spec? As I asked before where is the thrower to the 16 yard line?
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    We can't go one step forward with this until we know not the relationship between the houses, but rather where the centerline of the outside front edge of each house is relative to the centerline of 16-yard-line on its field.

    Neil
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You've got a point there, Garg. What are the specifications for the horizontal position of the thrower?

    Zara, I'll just leave the light Pat switched on untouched if it's OK with you.

    Neil
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- I have no convenient way to determine if the front of the house is at a right angle to the centerline through post three. I guess I could get some long pieces of string and use the 3,4,5 method. I suspect nearly all houses are close to this, but I also suspect many are a little off. I know that most walls in homes are not quite at right angles.

    I, like you am awaiting Garg's answer to the rules about placement of the trap machine in the trap house.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    In that we are building a new trap house in the next two weeks, we plan to get it right. The primary consideration is Point B, the place on the platen of the trap machine where the target rests which should also be on an intersect of the centerline of post 3 and a perpendicular line drawn through the traphouse either 1.5 or 2.5 feet from and parallel to the front wall of the trap house. Point B should also be level with the surface of post 3.

    In that trap house may be between 7.5 and 9.5 feet long, the new house in Pat's example may very well be 18" closer to the field than the old house, but as long as Point B is 16 yards, it makes no difference. However, it is recommended that the new trap house replicate the Point B positioning of the existing trap houses to maintain consistency of target presentation. This presumes that the field will be used in a bank with existing fields,(conforming or not), so that the silly practice of changing fields will not be adversely affected.

    Pat,

    Measure the width of the traphouse and divide by 2. Mark the centerline of post 3 at 16 and at 26 yards. On a square to this drive a stake on either side of the centerline at the 26 the same distance as half the traphouse width. Mark the same distance on the 16 yard walk both sides of the centerline with chalk. Stretch a tape from the stakes to the corners of the traphouse passing over the chalk marks. If both lines measure the same, the field is square to the house.

    If the tape doesn't pass over the chalk marks, but the distance is equal, the centerline of the house is not on the centerline of the field.
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to, Pat. It says intersection, not orthogonal intersection. You have no idea how hard I've worked to root illogical, totally unmeasurable, and sometimes erroneous precision out of the rulebook. It's taken years and it's been hand-to-hand all the way!

    Neil
     
  10. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    It is true that the trap machine adjustment can make up for minor variations in the house not being square to the field. However, I shot at a club that used rolled steel for their traphouse roofs and the ridges were disconcertingly not in line with the centerline of post 3.
     
  11. LDAdd

    LDAdd TS Member

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    I'd bet you could really open a can of worms if an attempt were made to measure and "certify" trap fields around the country. Most clubs have been in existence many years (as evidenced by the existence of the 25 to 27 yard extension of the runways) and most have had several different types of machines in the houses over time. Most traphouses have been modified or reconstructed to facilitate these changes and most likely haven't had the benefit of accurate measurements and angular relationships, not to mention the probability that many were not constructed properly in the first place. Often times you will encounter a traphouse where the target exits significantly right or left of center, and/or the machine is set improperly high or low inside the house. A lot of these conditions have been corrected upon upgrading the machines. Certainly a foot or more error in the location of the machine is technically incorrect, what difference does it really make? Unless the intention is to make these corrections, it is probably best to just leave the measureing tape home.

    Larry Addison

    (Retired Land Surveyor, CA & NV)

    Redding, CA
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- You are correct. I guess I spend too much time looking at the nice diagram in the rule book, and it is much more percise than most, probably all, fields.

    Larry- +- one foot in the placement of the machine can make a great difference but probably in a way not recognized by many. For example, if a machine were set directly under point B and adjusted to throw 9.5 feet high targets 42 MPH things would look good until you shot on the next trap where the machine was adjusted the same way but located 1 foot forward from point B. You would not want to go back to the first trap. Scores would be significantly higher on the second trap unless the wind was blowing. The targets we shoot appear elliptical and if we increase the angle of the ellipse, our targets become larger.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Pat,

    Reading the ATA Rule Book, there are actually 4 different definitions given for Point B. A pretty impressive assortment for only two pages. The only one that actually makes sense is the one that defines it as a point on the centerline of the house that is 16 yards from the front of post 3. Ideally this is where the trap machine should be positioned so that Point B is the starting point for the target's flight path and in the vertical, it is level with the sidewalk of post 3. However, a new house's Point B, per the Rules, can also "float" to where the other Point B's may reside in the existing traphouses. Doesn't say what you do if you have 3 existing houses all with different Point B's.

    In any case, in your note to Larry, if you were to set the target at 9.5 feet, you would do that 10 yards from Point B. Now if Point B is best defined as the starting point of the target, where ever that might actually be in the traphouse, then if it were 16 yards plus one foot from post 3, the hoop should be at 26 yards, plus one foot and I think your target trajectory would be the same.
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Richard Luckett - Because of some confusion about the exact location of point B (I use 2.5 feet from the front lip of the house) I doubt that your targets are illegal. The location of the machine in the house could very possibly result in less face of the targets showing as you are shooting them.

    If you have some real concerns, the 16-27 line markers could be redrawn with paint on your walkways.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Pat....

    No need for the 3-4-5 method...

    Just use simple math...

    A squared plus B squared equals the square root of C....that will give you the hypotenuse.

    Curt
     
  16. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Pat,

    Why do use 2.5 feet instead of 1.5 feet?
     
  17. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    I think the rule book says from the front wall of the house, not lip. That might be another 6 inchs.
     
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