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Another rules question- What to do???

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by tencows, Jul 10, 2008.

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  1. tencows

    tencows Member

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    This situation happened at a major shoot. Five team memembers were on this squad.
    Four adults and one youth. They had just finished on post four. All targets were hit clearly. I teach the youth to turn around and listen to the score before moving to the next station. 5 - 5 - 5- 4 - 5. Also, to listen for lost target for themselves and other squad memebers so that the problem can be fixed right then. No one heard loss in that round. Well the problem was address with the referee. He claimed he called lost. All five did not hear the word loss yelled, thus, the squad had no reason to stop shooting at that point. The referee marked the score sheet lost. Shoot management read from the rule book that the referee has the final say on hit and misses. Question. Do we need to revive a rule just for this situtation? Always looking to make this sport better, do we need a test for ATA referees before they can sit in a chair? Every sport I know has a written test. Looking for solutions.
     
  2. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Scorer does have final say pending appeal to shoot management. Usually a scorer would take the word of the rest of the squad that all targets were hit by the shooter in question. I didn't know the Pope was a part time puller.

    If I were shoot management and I had 4 squad members disputing a scorer, I would seriously consider awarding the target marked lost.
     
  3. motrap

    motrap Member

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    tencows: Question. Do we need to revive a rule just for this situtation?

    I have continued to advocate bringing back the old LARGE score sheet .... each box where dead/loss is marked, used to be 1" square ....... making the score sheet somewhere around 30" X 12" (for one trap 25) and the sheet was to be held/positioned by the scorer such that any/all shooters can glance around and easily see how each target was marked (regardless of what the scorer called) from every post .......

    We do so many painstaking and extra expense things, toward making the shooting process fair and accurate, ........ this one has always been a no brainer to me ........ but no official gives it even a second consideration, most commonly stating; "the larger sheets are too much trouble ........ !" and some; "they are too expensive ..... !"

    I contend, that considering the frequency of the problem, and the potential for the gravity of the infractions, that larger sheets would resolve, they are not nearly as much trouble/expense as many things we DO do in an effort to conduct a fair and equitable competition!

    A mis-marked target can alter the awarding of a record book accomplishment and/or THOUSANDS of Dollars .....

    Relatively speaking; what do all-orange targets do? / why should clubs supply water jugs? / do you really need the grass cut? / indoor plumbing? / ........

    ....... what's a CORRECT score worth to YOU?

    for the good of trapshooting ...... Rudy
     
  4. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    I must say that shoot management cannot over ride the scorer on dead or lost. Period. Shoot management can only deal with rules problems. So if the scorer does not understand the proper method of scoring, shoot management can correct it. They cannot make a scorer change a clean call.
     
  5. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Sorry Gary. Read the rules.

    SECTION VII

    OFFICIAL SCORING

    A. PROCEDURE

    1. The official score is the record kept by the referee/scorer on a

    sheet furnished him/her by shoot management. The referee/scorer’s

    decision on whether a target is dead or lost is final, subject to review

    only by the shoot committee or other governing body.
     
  6. old870

    old870 TS Member

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    This isn't a comment on the rules, but there are a number of scorers out there that don't have loud voices. I think that when they are in training for these large shoots, someone should remind them to call loudly (is that a real word?) so that the shooters can hear. I have a hard time hearing them most of the time.
     
  7. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    JBrooks, I am familiar with the rules, I am just trying to tell you something about the interpretation. Someone who was sitting in the clubhouse cannot come and tell a scorer that they did or did not see something and what was marked as a 0 should be dead. But I am not the ATA, I am only a practical person who has been to a few shoots. I am also practical enough to say that I am going to ask this question of Mr. Kaiser and see what he has to say.

    I believe the words "subject to review only by the shoot committee or other governing body" means the review is only about the rules or procedures not about dead or lost on a clean call from the scorer. IMHO, any shoot manager or authority who would add a bird to a shooters score over the scorer's call of lost could be certified as a nut.
     
  8. bas

    bas Member

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    old870, you are so right, and especially since in many cases, their chairs are now back to the 27 yd line. So, with earplugs and all of the other noise, it is very difficult to hear. The rule book also states that the scorer is to have the score sheet in plain view of the contestant at all times...now, if they were just behind the 16 yd line and if they flipped the board up so you could check your scores as you are changing posts....the above explained situation may not have happened. Unfortunately most of us have lost a target for the exact same reasons. So, chalk it up to experience and make a point of looking at the score sheet when you change stations. The rule is in the rulebook, but we as shooters, don't enforce it!. See page #9.
     
  9. Chipshot

    Chipshot TS Member

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    I was on a squad in 2006 that had the opposite situation. At the end of a post, the scorer called "All 5's", one of the shooters (a very good shooter), said that he had missed one. None of us had heard the scorer call "lost" so we let it stand and told the shooter he could protest to shoot management. The shooter in question was not only a good shooter but a good sportsman, he told us he just didn't want a 200 x 200 (which ended up being his final score) that he didn't deserve.

    Bob Mizner
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Betty is correct. The score sheet is usually not visible to shooters and we do not ask to see it when moving between posts. Few shooters understand that they have the right to check the score sheet prior to moving to the next post.

    Rarely, I find a very good scorer who will have the score sheet upside down as they are marking the scores and will tip the sheet up so it is then right side up in view of the shooters as they change posts.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. washandwear

    washandwear Member

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    Hi

    It is your score. Check it when you move between posts if important to you.
     
  12. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Having both scored and served as shoot management, if I have 4 sqaud members telling me that the scorer made a mistake, which they questioned at the time, but that the scorer refused to change, I'm going with the majority opinion.
     
  13. Tom Strunk

    Tom Strunk Well-Known Member

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    I had a situation last year that still ticks me off.

    I was shooting handicap and on the second field and I only had one lost (24). I listen for lost on any questionable target that is shot at for any of my squad members, and I watch EVERY TARGET THROWN. I never move unless the score for myself is correct. When the round was completed the scorer had me down for a 22 instead of a 24. I told the scorer and the squad that I only missed one target and that the 22 was not correct, and I was told by the squad leader? that the rules say I can't change the score and to stop complaining about it.

    What happened was another guy on the squad missed these birds, but the scorer marked them on my column by mistake. A man by the name of Bill Gray ( nice man, great shooter ) was on the squad and his wife sits right behind the squad when he is shooting and marks every target, either dead or lost, for the entire squad. She asked me what was the problem with the scoring, and I told her of what had happened. She went to her scoring pad and backed up what I had said. Another jerk on the squad wasn't man enough to admit that he had lost the targets, so I was screwed. Don't forget, the correct score was called out for me before I changed pegs each time.

    I told the squad leader of what she had scored and he told me to stop complaining, those are the rules.

    I have NEVER taken a target in my career that I didn't break. I can remember stopping a squad and asking them if they saw a piece off of my target that was called dead by the scorer, they said no, I had the target scored lost. I lost a major handicap on the Arizona Winter Chain with that one.

    Tom Strunk
     
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