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Another question about reloading.

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Mr. D, Oct 11, 2009.

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  1. Mr. D

    Mr. D Member

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    Hi all

    There has much discussion of late about blowing up barrels, double loads, coloring outsides the lines, running with scissors etc. Being new to reloading and safety being my #1 priority I have read a great deal on the subject and am now ready to reload my first round today.

    My ref book is Lyman's 5th edition and I will be loading AA hulls using #30 bushing and 1 1/8 bar w Red Dot (17.8 grs), Win 209 primer and WAA12 wad.

    On page 172 (1 1/8 oz. target load) it shows a Red Dot charge of 17.5, Win 209, WAA12 with a pressure of 10,400 psi. The #30 bushing is dropping .3grs more than what Lyman recommends.

    Is .3 grs more a problem? Also a few people have told me to keep my loads below 10,000 psi but to do that I would need a different primer and/or wad, am I missing something here?

    Thanks for any insight you can provide.
     
  2. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    If you have not reloaded before then My best advice to you is to find someone at your club who has been reloading for yours to help you. Not only do you have to learn how to understand the reloading book but you will have to learn how to work the reloader. Having someone who really knows the ins and outs of reloading will show you the tricks and reloading. Get someone to help you at the reloading table.
     
  3. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    <blockquote>"On page 172 (1 1/8 oz. target load) it shows a Red Dot charge of 17.5, Win 209, WAA12 with a pressure of 10,400 psi. The #30 bushing is dropping .3grs more than what Lyman recommends."</blockquote>

    Then either use a smaller bushing or put a piece of aluminum HVAC tape on the inside of yours to reduce its volume. Reloading data specifies a specific weight of powder but bushings drop the powder by volume, not weight. If a variation in the formulation of the powder has changed its density the recommended bushing will drop a lighter or heavier charge than called for.

    You're not required to use the bushing that is listed on the bushing chart. Select and use the bushing that gives you the correct weight.

    Carol Lister
     
  4. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Do what Auctioneer advises.

    It'll make the entire process a smooth one and a safe one.

    Curt
     
  5. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    You're weighing your charges, so you're light years ahead already. Now figure out how to have (an)adjustable charge bar(s) and you've made it into the 21st century.

    P.S. While you're weighing things, see how much shot you're throwing. And to answer your original question, the O.3 grains of Red Dot won't make any difference. 1.3, on the other hand might. Good luck.
     
  6. Bob_K

    Bob_K Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I don't believe the OP is weighing his charges. He is taking the MEC bushing chart as gospel. The problem is that the bushing chart was developed using a single stage press. That means the case is put in the deprimer/resizer and the handle operated. The powder settles a little during this operation. You move the case to the repriming station and operate the handle. The powder settles a little during this operation. You move the case to the powder charging station and finally drop the powder. The extra handle strokes of the single stage press before you get to powder charging allow the powder to settle, and the drop is heavier than the same bushing will drop on a progressive press where every handle operation drops a powder load. The powder drop is also affected by how the operator operates the machine. Without a scale, I doubt he knows how much powder he is dropping.
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Bob_K

    "Actually, I don't believe the OP is weighing his charges."

    Bob maybe you missed something here Mr. D gave his information he also said.

    "The #30 bushing is dropping .3grs more than what Lyman recommends."

    If he didn't weight his charges how would he now the bushing is dropping .3grs more than the manual recommends?????

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

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    Do what Auctioneer said.. there is nothing like having a good reloading mentor to guide you along the steps of reloading.

    WesleyB
     
  9. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    It is not always good to use a mentor unless he knows what he is doing, And how to you determine that???

    Read everything you can get your hands on. If your mentor strays from published procedures, a big red flag should go up.

    I did not have a mentor and I am glad I did not learn any bad habits. Everything you need to know is in manuals and books. Read them,, understand them and take it slowly.

    .3 grains is not a big deal but I would not do that with a charge close to max.

    Why even start your hobby with a hot load??? Throttle your load down. It is better to be the next bushing down in size. Your targets will NOT know the difference. I use the same load as you do and run 16.5 gr.

    I also weigh 4-5 charges to get an average and to ensure charge weights are not varying a lot between throws. Charge variations can point to static or a partial blockage in the drop tube.

    Have fun safely. It is a great hobby and running your first 100 with your own loads really feels good.

    Don Verna
     
  10. Mr. D

    Mr. D Member

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    Thanks for the info.

    Don makes a good point about a mentor and I have always been a "if you want it done right do it yourself" kind of guy and besides the whole mechanics of reloading a shell is pretty simple.

    Carol hit on a good point I had not thought of and that was controlling the inside volume of the bushing to reduce the dropped weight.

    Bob - I am weighing my powder drops which is how I came up with the 17.8 figure, the MEC bushing chart says a #30 bushing will drop 17.8 grs when using Red Dot and I it was correct as I weighed this with a Scales Co. SMT-108 scale.

    Stokinpls - I see a adjustable charge bar showing up on my door step next week.

    Dennis
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    As Carol L. does, I often modify bushings to get them to drop the charge I am looking for. Unlike Carol, I prefer fingernail polish to reduce the size of the bushing. I used to use tape until some powder worked its way behind the tape and I loaded a lot of light charges between weighing the drops. I weigh 5-10 shells at the beginning of a loading session and when I am satisfied, I will load 1,000 or so shells.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. Bob_K

    Bob_K Well-Known Member

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    "Bob maybe you missed something here Mr. D gave his information he also said."

    "The #30 bushing is dropping .3grs more than what Lyman recommends."

    I believe the OP is saying the published MEC bushing charge drop of 17.8 gr is .3 gr more that the published Lyman recipe. No where do I see where he is actually weighing his charges. I sincerely doubt he is dropping 17.8 gr of Red Dot in actuality. Weighing powder drop weights is mandatory for safety IMO.
     
  13. Mr. D

    Mr. D Member

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    No where do I see where he is actually weighing his charges. I sincerely doubt he is dropping 17.8 gr of Red Dot in actuality. Weighing powder drop weights is mandatory for safety IMO.

    Bob as I stated above I used a Scales Co. SMT-108 scale to weight the amount of powder a #30 MEC bushing drops. I can take a picture if this would help clear things up.
     
  14. Charles.F.Phillips

    Charles.F.Phillips TS Member

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    Mr. D,

    Don Verna is dead on. Read everything you can get your hands on and then read them again. Do your own research and be thorough; if you're not wiling to do that, then sell your equipment and buy ammo in a store or online.

    My Lyman book is an older one and the articles are just as valid today as they were when I bought it, but I don't use the charge tables in it because they are now out of date, so I use the most recent charge tables published by the powder manufacturers.

    How old is your Lyman book? Mine does not take AA-HS hulls into account in the listings for AA hulls, but the newer tables do. You may not be using AA's, but nothing stays the same forever for any component.

    Never start with the highest load, but instead, start at the bottom and work your way up until you get the best patterns. The Lyman book will tell you that best patterns are rarely the fast loads and when you start at the bottom, an extra 0.3 grains of powder will be well within safe limits - you cannot assume that when you start getting near the top. However, even when starting at the bottom, it's no excuse to skip verification of charge weights.

    Finally, NEVER assemble a load from a recipe given to you by a friend or acquaintance unless you've checked the most recent charge tables and determined that it's a safe load.

    R/s,<br />
    Charlie

    "The Dude abides..."
     
  15. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Alliant's website states the components you use need 18 grains of Red dot for a speed of 1200 FPS Which is the standard for a 3 dram load.

    I wouldn't be getting all anal about 3 tenths when you are under the powder manufacturer's published data.

    It is very easy to get different results from the same set of components due to changes in barrel length, huidity, barometric pressure, and tolerances of the measuring devices.

    your 30 bushing is fine, if you like the way it shoots go with it. If not put in a 31.

    HM
     
  16. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Dennis, Glad to see your useing a scale to load your shells and useing data from a reloading guide as well. First off I don't think that load would be my first choice!!! Do try to load under 10,000 psi. There are many of them out there. Change one of your components if you need to. Second I also agree with Pat when using fingernail polish. You can always find one from your wife,girlfriend,neighbor. Women aways have a color they don't use anymore. A nice medium coat will bring down the bushing about 3/10's of a grain. This works great with Mec's bushings which go up in about 6/10's of a grain increments. I will not use a adj. charge bar, because I don't want it to adj. while I am loading. Fixed bars and bushings will never change no matter how long you reload them, and they take awhile to adj. to get set just right in the first place. With your load already 400 psi to high the extra 3/10's of a grain of powder could bring up up to ll,000 psi. This is way to high for a 16 yard target load. Or just drop one bushing as mentioned above already. Good Luck and BReak-em all. Jeff
     
  17. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    Mr. D,

    Checking my copy of Lyman's 5th Ed., there is also a 18.0 gr Red Dot load using the same other components. So dropping 17.8 grs is still below the fastest load listed. This is a good choice for a first load. Dropping less shot will always yield less pressure, usually with an increase in velocity.

    You may find it of some interest to cross check the data from the powder manufacturer, link posted above.

    11,500 psi is the maximum pressure for 2 3/4 inch 12 ga shell. So, 10,000 psi as a maximum is a personal choice. I like to choose my loads one to 2 levels below the fastest load listed. This way my powder drops will always be below the fastest one listed.

    When you are loading your first batch of shells check the powder drop of the first 10 then every 5th or so. This is to see if your drops are consistent. Once you establish that your range of drops are consistently in a safe range you can just check now and then. Alway confirm the drop weight of powders when ever starting a new jug of powder from a different Lot Number.

    I prefer MEC bars and bushings, even though they are not readily adjustable to drop an exact amount of shot or powder. I find it easier when switching from my 16 yard Singles load and Handicap load. Also, once the drop weight is established you are good for that whole jug.

    Jason
     
  18. Chipmaker

    Chipmaker Active Member

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    Pull & Mark

    "With your load already 400 psi to high the extra 3/10's of a grain of powder could bring up up to ll,000 psi. This is way to high for a 16 yard target load."

    Please explain what PSI has to do with being a 16yd or a handicap load or a backup load for game shooting etc....?
     
  19. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Chipmaker, I will not load any 12 ga. load I make over 10,000 psi. period. Even my handicap loads will stay under that number. Most will agree that handicap loads are faster, and most have higher psi numbers. Now that said I can keep my handicap under 10,000 psi and my 16 yard loads under 9,000 psi, why would I use a load over 10,400 psi just for singles. What might Dennis or someone else use when they wanted to speed up for handicap ??? I'm no genius, but common sense tells me if you want to use the same barrel for 20 plus years or more use the least amount of pressure as possible for the same speed loads just makes sense. Yes, I know psi's have nothing to do with recoil as well. But I also think that less psi's give you a few extra loads with the same hulls before they wear out as well. At 10,400 psi an extra 3/10's or .3 grains of powder can very well take the pressure to 10,700 to 11,000 psi. Now what would he use for a handicap load when he wants one in a year or two??? Nuff said. Good Luck Dennis and Break-em all. JEff (just my 2 cents worth)
     
  20. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

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    I have reloaded for over 35 yrs... hmmmm never knew that I started off wrong. Amazing on what you can learn.
     
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