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Another, not so simple rules question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by phirel, Jul 6, 2009.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Shooting doubles, shooter has a bad shell for the first shot. He misses the target and the wad remains in the barrel. But, the soft load causes an involuntary flinch, and he fires the second barrel while the guns is partially dismounted with both targets in the air. He fails to break either target. What happens then?

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Bayonet charge?
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    If a shot is fired,,,,the results must be recorded. Lost pair, then on to reloading school and a good nerve Dr.? :) Hap
     
  4. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    Lost pair. And a dangerous situation.
     
  5. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    How does he know the wad remains in the barrel? He hasen't looked. At any rate it's two lost birds.
     
  6. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I would say lost pair.

    What was the actual ruling?
     
  7. RLC323

    RLC323 Member

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    Both targets in the air is the key I believe. Lost pair. Another question arises... What if a super alert scorer said "failure to fire" in the split second between the dud and the flich-fire?
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    New pair is the way to resolve it, charging the shooter with one FTF.

    The rulebook can't cover every possible situation and trusts shoot management to use common sense to resolve uncertainties like this. If everyone were just required to shoot Perazzis, this kind of thing would never happen, since the second barrel would not fire (if the trigger be unmodified).

    Neil
     
  9. WarEagle2017

    WarEagle2017 Active Member

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    I liked the bayonet charge the Best LOL LOL and another thought is if that He was using inerta triggers He wouldnt have been able to fire the second shot
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Neil says that a new pair is the way to resolve it I agree I read it as the first target never was fired at so the second target doesn't enter the equation.

    The rulebook says:

    the Failure to Fire occurs when the contestant attempts to shoot
    the first target of a Doubles pair, or when the contestant attempts
    to shoot the second target of a Doubles pair after the first target has been fired at and broken and would have been scored “DEAD”. When the first target of a Doubles pair is fired at and missed and that target would be scored “LOST”, there shall be no allowable Failure to Fire at the second target.

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Once again, Neil has it right.... about the Perazzi's also...
     
  12. geneleroy

    geneleroy TS Member

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    If the wad didn't clear the barrel his light load must have been a primer only, a primer only load does not produce enough recoil to set the second trigger on my 'fire stick', therefore I couldn't have fired the second shot!

    But to address the question:IMO, if the target(s)are in the air and the gun goes off a second time for any reason, the results are scored! LOST PAIR!

    Another scenario, if it's your turn and you are 'locked & loaded' and the gun fires when a target is in the air, the results are scored. Makes no difference whether you called for the target or not, if the gun went off while the target was air-borne before the shot, the results are scored. Now I've seen shooters insist(if the target was missed)they get another shot since they didn't call for the target, of course this doesn't happen if the target was hit! LOL Refer VII-E/6
     
  13. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible to replace the Perazzi trigger group fast enough so that when the spring breaks after the first bird, it can be replaced and the 2nd bird shot before it hits the ground? How fast can one get the spare trigger group out of it's holster, assuming one has one holstered at belt level???
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    geneleroy

    "But to address the question:IMO, if the target(s)are in the air and the gun goes off a second time for any reason, the results are scored! LOST PAIR!"

    With all due respect I can't speak for others but your opinion and a Buck will get you a coffee. The ATA rules govern the results not your opinion.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    At this weekend's shoot a fellow on my squad had a bad box of shells while shooting doubles. He had two failures to fire already when he called for his next pair. The first shot was a failure to fire, he did not shoot at the second bird. My question is: is it a lost pair, or does he shoot the pair over with the first bird lost no matter if he hits is or not? Bruce
     
  16. Post  2

    Post 2 TS Member

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    It would have to be a gun with a mechanical trigger in this instance correct?
    Depending on the the charge how would one know if the wad was still in the barrel except by conjector. If the wad did remain in the barrel chances are the barrel would have blown or at least bulged. I would suspect the wad left the barrel unnoticed thus causing the first bird to be lost as well as the second bird, thus lost a pair. The shooter should follow Neils advise and purchase a Parazzi and use new shells or learn how to reload. Post-2
     
  17. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    "He had two failures to fire already when he called for his next pair. The first shot was a failure to fire, he did not shoot at the second bird. My question is: is it a lost pair, or does he shoot the pair over with the first bird lost no matter if he hits is or not?"

    If he had two FTF's already in that sub-event, I believe the rules are pretty clear that any succeeding FTF's result in a lost pair (if the misfire is on the first shot and he doesn't, or can't, shoot at the second target.)

    If he already has two FTF's, and breaks the first target, but has the FTF on the second shot, its "dead-lost" and no re-shoot.
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The shooter was using a K-80 O/U. It has mechanical triggers. He knew the wad was in the barrel because he opened the gun after he fired the second shot into the air. Up to that time, he had no failure to fire on the round.

    Powder bottles do get empty now and then.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Pat, had the first wad cleared the barrel,which he didn't know at the time if it did or not, the results of the second shot must be scored when the clays in the air. The rule book doesn't say the gun must be shouldered for the shot to count, does it? If I'm scoring the round, it's a lost pair,period.

    Why wouldn't semi-auto shooters get another do over when it jams on the first shot with a MISSED target? That rule says both targets are lost. Hap
     
  20. Jeff P

    Jeff P Well-Known Member

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    I think if the first target is a legitimate failure to fire...the second target shouldn't count.

    I like Neil's answer....the gentlemanly thing to do is to let the guy have his pair over.

    Though I'm the Alaska president and I SHOULD know the rules BETTER than I do....I would always default to giving the shooter the best possible chance to break his best score if I had to decide on the spot.

    I'd hate to beat a guy by one bird in that deal. And if he broke his fresh pair and beat me by one, I'd just have to try harder to break one more bird next time....
     
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