1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Another classification ?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by 635 G, Oct 5, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    6,225
    Got a reduction after a 1000 target review, went to a major shoot @ shot a 97 got the reduction removed. Just looked up my scores & averages on the ATA site. Noticed that I've got a reduced yardage, posted, again. Can I get a reduction without my approval. Just,e-mailed Kathy to check. Anyone have any advice on correcting this. Will be going to a major shoot next week & don't want any classification problems.

    Lou
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    Kathy will fix it, have no fear, Lou. And anyway, it's what's on your card - with the punch for the 97 - which the classifier uses, _not_ the Shooter Information Center, whose use as a reduction-verification is rule-book prohibited. A paper card controls, not the SIC.

    Now before someone thinks it's because the SIC is inaccurate, it's not. The rulebook text was inserted at the specific request of the CHC because the site is sometimes too fast. A reduction appears there _before_ a delegate hears a thing (which is as it should be) and it may be one of those rare cases when the delegate wants to prevent the reduction. The "card in hand" rule puts a bit more control over the whole process.

    Neil
     
  3. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Neil Winston not looking for an argument just stating an opinion. If the delegate has final say before a reduction is allowed then it should not be posted until it is confirmed by the delegate.

    It causes many to stop attending shoots until the reduction is confirmed by receiving in the mail. This in turn has a negative affect on attendance at certain times. Lets face it the way attendance is at shoots this year anything negative is not good for the Clubs.

    Bob Lawless
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    Bob, I must say I don't understand. Let's look at this two ways:

    1. I stays as it is. The reduction goes up but can't be used until the card comes.

    2. Your suggestion; "If the delegate has final say before a reduction is allowed then it should not be posted until it is confirmed by the delegate."

    Isn't the effect the same? Why does the first ". . . cause(s) many to stop attending shoots until the reduction is confirmed by receiving in the mail" and the second not? After all, both require a card, don't they?

    Neil
     
  5. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    6,225
    Neil, rules are the rules, but why rely on snail mail--once the reduction is acknowledged on the ATA site, why not allow an e-mail from the ATA delegate or whatever governing body, to be accepted as the determination of handicap yardage.

    Lou
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    Partly, Lou, because there are dozens and dozens of reductions all summer and delegates have a life too. The most you are going to get is a yard off and it'll come next week anyway. If it weren't for the website you'd never know in any case; if it causes all this heartache - not attending a shoot as Bob says, for example - , just don't look.

    Neil
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Neil both do require a card no argument but if the card is not in the shooters possession and he doesn't know and attends a smaller shoot and receives a 1/2 yd does he not loose the reduction? I would feel that he would but I maybe I am wrong.

    Assuming(and we know what they say about assume)I am correct and he sees that he is going to get a reduction on line just before this shoot in question and says in a couple of weeks there is a better shoot I will wait and attend that shoot at a reduced yardage.

    Now this has in affect hurt the attendance of the smaller shoot. As I see it if I am correct in my assumption. I feel that the small club is less able to absorb the lack of attendance than the big club. Either way the reduction probably won't affect the bigger shoot anyway.

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    If it's posted on the website it should be utilized. What good is a Shooter Information Center if you can't use the informatiom? Jim
     
  9. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,413
    Location:
    Chicago area
    Perga1 -

    I'll tell you why you can't use it . . . as many on here have bitched and moaned for years, it's not always right. If someone at the ATA records my 98 in singles as an 89 and it drops my average down a class, do I have any right to go to a shoot and get classified based on that incorrect info? If a club forgets to include my name on the punch list for a shoot, do I have a right to shoot at a lesser yardage than what I have earned?

    If nothing else, take a look at the name of the feature on the website - Shooter Information Center. If it was to be used for classification they probably would call it the Classifier Information Center or the "This is the absolute final word, right or wrong, on your scores information center" . . . but they don't.

    Bob Lawless . . . turning molehills into mountains one molehill at a time!

    Scott
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    perga1 Jim you have been in this sport long enough to know that a shooter can go to classification and claim to be in any class he wishes. He can however only prove his claims with a class card.

    Also ATA rules say

    F. SPECIAL HANDICAP RULES

    1. A shooter must continue to shoot from the last yardage assigned
    or earned until he/she receives a new Average Card with his or her
    reduced yardage indicated on it regardless of the length of time that has
    elapsed since that yardage was assigned or earned. The ATA Shooter
    Information Center is not to be used to evidence of a reduction; only
    an Average Card with the new yardage will be accepted.

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    There is another dimension to this question. At larger shoots, the classification committee has a recent download from the ATA computer to assist in classification. It is quite common for the download to have a reduction that the shooter has not yet received. It is the common practice at the two Satellite Grands I help classify and at the Grand American to allow these shooters to accept the reduction prior to receiving the card or refuse the reduction. On a typical day at Silver Dollar, I inform 8-10 shooters that they have been granted a reduction in the ATA computer (this is not the Shooter Information Site)and they can accept or refuse the reduction. If the reduction is refused, we send in a note to the ATA office. If they accept the reduction, they are classified at their new yardage. I do this with a member of the CHC sitting next to me.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    To all above, have you all forgotten that a shooter is responsible to be sure they are properly classified. I know if I am due a reduction. I know if my average is 98 or 88. If I go to a shoot and allow an incorrect classification it is my responsibility. Why state a shooter is responsible for proper classification if they can't be trusted to see that it is done. Bob, the only point I was trying to make is what good is an information center if the information can't be used when it is obvious to the member that it is correct? Pat Ireland makes a very valid point regarding being classified differently in handicap than what your average card shows. It also applies to 16's because averages are rarely up to date on the CD from the ATA if you have registered targets within 2 weeks. I have had many debates over classification based on the ATA CD provided to shoot management. Many classifiers take the CD as gospel when in fact a properly kept Average Card is more accurate. So, the shooter is responsible for proper classification except when he/she isn't, according to the classifier. Too many contradictions. Why can't the SIC be directly downloaded from the files used for the CD? Then it would be valid and the name would mean something. JRM
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    scott calhoun what is the problem do you just dislike me(even though you don't know me)or are you looking for a argument? I simply stated an opinion addressed to Neil and I get this from you

    "Bob Lawless . . . turning molehills into mountains one molehill at a time!"

    No one defends the ATArule on this site more than I do and when I have a concern and converse with a man who's opinion I respect on what I think can on a small scale effect adversly affect the clubs you take objection to it.

    I'll tell you you what you can sit on it if you don't like it TS.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Jim if "To all above, have you all forgotten that a shooter is responsible to be sure they are properly classified. I know if I am due a reduction. I know if my average is 98 or 88. If I go to a shoot and allow an incorrect classification it is my responsibility.

    So Jim now that you have stated that just what were you and Pat responding to and what does it have to do with the case scenario that I gave Neil. My Main concern here is for the Club you know the small clubs that hold the bulk of the ATA shoots every year. The ones I might add that don't have computer services and In this state that means all except one.

    You said "Bob, the only point I was trying to make is what good is an information center if the information can't be used when it is obvious to the member that it is correct?"

    Well when you consider that what the rules say.

    ". A shooter must continue to shoot from the last yardage assigned or earned until he/she receives a new Average Card with his or her reduced yardage indicated on it regardless of the length of time that has elapsed since that yardage was assigned or earned."

    Your point is well within the points I made to Neil. If the information was not there until after the Delegate has confirmed the reduction. This point of yours would be Moot as in the first place the shooter would not know exactly that the reduction had been granted.

    Neil I think now you can see a cross section of what can come of allowing this reduction to exist without Delegate confirmation.

    Pat your post opens up another case of ignoring the rules as printed in the rulebook. The rule in this Association are hard enough to understand with out using the computer to complicate them further. Anyone that reads the rule threads on this site and see the responses from shooter on the rule should confirm this.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,413
    Location:
    Chicago area
    Bob -

    Sorry, forgot to preface my statements with "not looking for an argument just stating an opinion" Hopefully that will make you feel better. I don't dislike you.

    I'd be curious to know what number constitutes "many" in your statement "It causes many to stop attending shoots until the reduction is confirmed by receiving in the mail"? Depending on the number maybe this is contributing to the declining attendance at shoots around the country, and all this time we've been thinking it's the economy.

    I look at the SIC on a fairly regular basis, as I shoot a lot of targets and I check to make sure they got entered correctly. It's never crossed my mind to modify my shooting schedule based on when/if I'm going to receive a reduction. And further, I've never until today heard anyone talk about modifying their shooting schedule based on when/if they will get a reduction. In fact, most of the people I shoot with worry more about when their 1000 target review is coming because they want to make sure their scores are good enough that they won't get a reduction. It probably a safe bet that I don't hang around with the same kind of shooters you do.

    As for Pat Ireland taking liberties with the rules - I'm pretty surprised by that considering Pat spent a long time as a delegate. I'm sure he thinks he's doing the right thing, but it seem to be pretty clear it's against the rules.

    Scott
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    No, Bob, I see no cross-section. I see a couple/three guys on TS.com. In the five years I've been a VP and President, no one has told me this is a problem. And, in fact, it's not been a problem. You and others will get your reductions. If you really don't shoot because you are a yard farther back than you will be next week, that's up to you. Here's the deal: Handicap shooters will shoot closer when they have a card that says you shoot closer. It's that way because the CHC told me it will work better that way and I believe them.

    Neil
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    I did point out in my post that the "liberties with the rules" I described was done under the direct supervision of at least one member, sometimes several members, of the Central Handicap Committee. My point was to illustrate one situation where direct information from the ATA computer can override the information on the ATA card. This is done at the Grand American.

    Role of the Delegate- Reductions are, or at least were, mailed to the Delegates at the same time they were mailed to the shooters. After the shooter receives the reduction, the delegate can recommend that the reduction be reversed and the shooter sent a new card.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    Pat, if you will remember the "old days," there were several (maybe most) delegates who were sent the reductions for approval before they were sent out and in those cases a week or two passed before the cards arrived in the mailboxes of all state-resident shooters even though the denial of a reduction applied to only a few if any. I don't know if any states still do it that way today.

    Neil
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page

ata trap class reduction