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Another Classification ?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Sep 6, 2008.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    There is another thread on classification with two points of view. In this thread, I am expanding the classification question.

    At most shoots, the classification of each trophy winner is reviewed. If a shooter wins Class B in singles on Friday, and I review the classification of that shooter on Saturday morning and find that a clear mistake was made. The shooter should have been in Class A. Should the results of the singles event on Friday be changed?

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No. Friday is in the books a while after the event. If the classification was wrong because the document the shooter presented was misleading, the club should file an official complaint. If the club made a mistake, it should take action to prevent recurrence.

    Neil
     
  3. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    And should purchase a second trophy to present to the right full winner. HMB
     
  4. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    We had something similar to this happen last Sunday - although it was all resolved the same day. It happened to me.

    I was the C Class winner for about 10 minutes -- buckle was given, average card marked as winner, etc. Shoot management came and told me that there was an error and that someone else actually won. The error was Shoot Managements; they inadvertently classed him higher than he was in the computer which then included the score sheets, results, etc. I was told I could keep the buckle. However, since I didn't earn it, it wasn't mine to keep, so I gave it back.

    So here's a question - since our classes/yardage are on the score sheets, are we still responsible for ensuring that we are placed in the right class/yardage at that time or just before leaving the handicap/classification table as is normal?
     
  5. perazzitms

    perazzitms TS Member

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    Browning - sounds like the club was trying to shut up a whiner at your expense.

    The shooter walked from the table without checking or questioning his classification. He walked, therefore he owns it. Pay attention next time.

    You won - should have kept the buckle.
     
  6. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    Perazzitms,

    Actually, he was classified correctly at the table. It's when his information was input in the computer that the error occurred. So everything was incorrect after that (except for the shoot paperwork that we carry). Therefore, it became Shoot Management's error, correct? I didn't win in that case. Now, had it been as you described, no way I would've given it back.

    Which brings me back to my question, when do we stop looking to see if we're in the right place? If we're correctly classified at the table, who looks further?
     
  7. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    Browning4me- not really sure of the answer but I always look on the official scoresheets (the ones that are posted) to make sure I'm classified the same as what I was determined at the table.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  8. motrap

    motrap Member

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    Although I am in favor of rewarding as many participants as is logical, I have never been an advocate of the ATA classes system. I feel AGE and GENDER (categories) are real; these could be expanded and some others added; e.g. ROOKIE, 2-5 years, 40-50 years, etc.; Under 5000 TARGETS, 5001-10000 TARGETS, etc.;

    Our present Class system is only slightly more telling of ones status than the Lewis Class System used at most Derbies; AND only slightly less manipulatable, (AND, having mingled with Derby participants for 40 years, just as acceptable to them as a prize classification system.)

    Even Neil agrees there is little reason to strip the winner of an erroneously classified/awarded Class Trophy. Ask him whether a HANDICAP trophy, shot from the wrong yardage should be stripped. Ask him if a category trophy awarded to a non qualifier should be stripped.

    There is no opinion, no special circumstances; no buddy system, involved with HCP yardage, Category placement, length of shooting, or number of targets shot .........
     
  9. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    Jerry - that's when the shooter realized he was incorrectly classed - when he looked at the official scores that were posted. Therein lies the problem (or not), I guess.

    Mind you, I'm not complaining whatsoever, fair is fair and it wasn't the shooters fault in this case. Had it been the shooters fault, well, that would've been a different story and outcome.
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Neil Winston sorry I don't agree. Now I know that this rule is not etched in stone there are some could of and would of and should of but what about this rule

    "2. It is the responsibility of all shooters to see that they are handicapped and classified properly in accordance with these Rules and/or the official program. Any errors made by the classification committee and/or the
    shooter must be corrected before shooting or the shooter may be subject
    to disqualification and may be subject to further disciplinary action"

    If this rule not enforced is it fair to the shooters that may be affected by a change or by no change?

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    According to the rule book, Bob L. has made a strong point. Neil stated that "if the club made a mistake" but actually, the club cannot make a mistake. It is the shooters responsibility to make certain he is classified correctly.

    Also, the classification of all winners is usually not reviewed until well after the event has ended, often the next day. Is it fair to take away a trophy from a person under these circumstances-- No. But, also is it fair to deny a trophy to a shooter who legitimately won it?

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    If I understand this discussion correctly - I should not have given up the win and the other shooter was out of luck. Even though he thought he was classified correctly as evidenced by his paperwork before leaving the handicap table?

    Seriously, other than the classification table and the official results, where else would you check to see if you're in the right class/yardage? Why would I think I'm in the wrong class/yardage if my paperwork is correct? I'm confused, but I will be more cautious in the future, that's for sure.
     
  13. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    pat we don't have time for this THIS is the time for all the political BS rick
     
  14. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

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    I see both sides but I sure like to shoot with people like Rrowning4me! It's nice to see people who are more concerned to do what their heart tells them than take a trophy home that they might not feel just right about.
    I will give you my trophy- RESPECT
     
  15. hoggy

    hoggy TS Member

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    Had the same thing happen to me. The club accidentally put me in the wrong class. As it turned out I probably would have won had I been in either class. Instead they disqualified me so I got nothing but the feeling they thought I had cheated. However I had given them my card and I was in a hurry so I didn't check. The rules said I was responsible so they disqualified me. This was PITA not ATA. I have not shot another PITA match since. I may never shoot another one. In this day and age with computers etc. this should never have happened. I also feel they need to revise the rules on accidental mistakes. BTW it was singles that it happened to me on.
     
  16. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    If I am reading this correctly, the shooter was given one classification when he entered, but a different classification was entered into the computer without the shooter's knowledge. When would the shooter reasonably be expected to notice the error and and attempt to have the misclassification corrected? Either when the scoresheet is posted, or if the running scores were displayed as many of the computer programs do, when his score showed up with the wrong class attached. Usually the results are not considered final until some reasonable time after the last scores are posted, say half an hour or so. If the shooter does not take action to get things corrected by then, then in my mind he is SOL and the results should stand as announced.
     
  17. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Something similar happened to me at the Heartland Grand. Championship doubles B class, four of us were high with 91, so we shot off to determine winner and runner-up. Went to pick up my trophy the next morning and found out I was the runner-up (won the shoot-off) and that a 94 was listed as the winner.

    Based on information from Dale, the shooter had been correctly classified as a B shooter but was put into the computer in AA. Shooter walked away from the classificiation table thinking he was in B but his score showed up in AA. He notified the shoot management after he saw the scores posted.

    While it was dissappointing to find out I didn't get the winner's trophy, it wasn't by any fault of mine or the other shooter, and he didn't do anything unethical in order to win so I had no issue with not getting the winner's trophy.

    Stuff like that is going to happen. Like Browning4me said - it wasn't mine so why would I take it.

    Scott
     
  18. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    So, in the final analysis, I have this question. When does it stop being the shooter's responsibility (if we have done everything according to the rules) and where does the club/shoot management's responsibility start when there are incidents like this?

    I'm not knocking my club or any other club for human error -- it happens. I just wonder why it always falls back on the shooter, especially with things we have no control over.
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Pat,

    What about a shooter who does object to his being classified lower than he thinks he should be but the Classifier puts him in the lower class anyway. How much arguing does he have to do?
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    JBrooks- Excellent question and I do not have a good, or even a poor answer. When I a classifying, it is rather simple for a shooter to talk me into putting him into a higher class and this frequently happens. It is sometimes very difficult for a shooter to talk me into putting him into a lower class.

    When a shooter disagrees with my judgment on his classification I politely suggest that he seek the opinion of another person who is classifying. When things get slow at the classification table, we pull up individuals who are on a boarder line and have been classified. We discuss the classification with each other and usually are in agreement with the correct classification. We also recognize that we can make mistakes. If a mistake is made, we correct it as soon as possible. I believe classification at the shoots I attend is very good, but it can't be perfect. I was clearly misclassified at one shoot this year (too high). I smiled and shot with little chance of winning anything in class AA doubles. But I still had fun.

    Pat Ireland
     
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