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Annual State Awards

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by k3uro, May 21, 2007.

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  1. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey,

    Please give your opinion concerning how many targets are needed to be eligible for State Team Awards?

    When does it become a purchased award?

    Recently awards were handed out, there were 13 awards. When the Board was asked how many shot enough targets for the awards, the answer was 13.

    So, was the awards purchased?

    What do you all think? :O)
     
  2. Wentez

    Wentez Member

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    I think our Texas system is very fair. Texas has 5 zones. A shooter can take his championship target scores from any two of the Zone Championship Shoots plus the Championship targets from the state shoot. The championship targets at all shoots are the 200 singles on Saturday, 100 doubles and 100 handicap on Sunday.

    There are total requirements: 2500 singles, 1500 caps and 1000 doubles for men and lesser amounts for the categories.

    You can shoot all 5 zones or any 2. The 200 Singles, 100 doubles and 100 handicap championship targets from your choice of any two zones plus the 200 singles, 100 doubles and 100 handicap championship targets from the state shoot are the high score basis for state team selection.

    Everyone has to use their scores from the state shoot plus their choice from the zones. This prevents a system where you could use fair weather targets only or targets from a favored club.

    Our state shoot this year - 3-8 July - is at the National Shooting Complex here in San Antonio - lots of guns to be given away (22 I believe). Our Zone V shoot is also at National with about 15 guns to be given away - 13-16 Sept.

    Come shoot with us.

    Geo Wentz
     
  3. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey Guys,

    At what point does it become water down with money targets? If you can shoot enough events it becomes a high volume award not a real average award.

    You mean there are not people who manage their targets? If a really good shooter has a bad day does he go home or stick it out with poor scores. Won't some just go home and try again next week.

    Since there are no professional only shoots, the rest of the shooters have to try and live out of their budgets in order try and win an award?

    I am just trying to make sense out of the way shooters seem to be excluded just because of cost.

    Thanks for your input,

    Jim
     
  4. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    Well, in Missouri the requirements are 2,000 singles, 1,500 handicaps, and 1,000 doubles I think. That is an attainable amount of targets. They put out a list of the top 85 shooters that have attained the numbers and there is always at least 85 shooters. It is the last 4% or so that is the hardest to get lol. It goes on averages here and the lowest composite average is a tad over 94%. Besides. it should be difficult to get on the state team. It is an honor. John
     
  5. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey,

    You are right it should be the very best shooters.

    But how many targets are shot at Marathons and small shoots? Don't you see target management going on with a system like that too it just weeds out the ones that have less money.

    So you set the bar really high, people may shoot a lot of those types of targets.

    You figure it a shooter goes to a shoot where they throw 300 targets a day.

    He will have to attend 20 shooting days in singels, 15 shooting days in handicap, and 10 shooting days in doubles?

    That would be about 10 weekend shoots or 2 major shoots lasting about a week.

    Now where does the average shooter fit in here?

    Take care,

    Jim
     
  6. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

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    k3uro - I register 10 - 12 thousand targets per year (combined singles, handicap, doubles). Nothing terribly unusual about that. Your example is quite flawed. I shoot at least 2 500 bird doubles marathons each year. Why?? I really like to shoot doubles. So that is two days shooting and 1000 targets. Singles is frequently a 200 bird event and is also offered in marathon style. I don't happen to love shooting 500 singles but even skipping the marathons it is not difficult to get those targets in. I agree that 1500 handicaps is usually 15 days of shooting. But there are 365 days in a year. There are 52 weekends or 104 saturdays and sundays. 15 is not many.

    You have not offered an alternative. You must live in a state with a very small shooter base. In real shooting states your arguments would be laughed out of the room.
     
  7. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey,

    No, this is not about quantity but it has been said thay quality competition should rule.

    So with that in mind, you can see where the thought process would take you. Are the awards beging marginialized just becuase of the type of targets being shot.

    I had assumed the targets were being shot at major events where the targets are maybe higher priced and the competition stiffer?

    My schedule is very full, 3-4 months of hunting, 4 months of Trap and Skeet shooting, 9 months of work plus all the other stuff that goes on. Mother's day, etc.

    Maybe I have to many hobbies.

    I shot over a 1000 targets once at MSP a few years ago. Shot my first 100 that week. Practice does help even if it is not perfect.

    So, what I am hearing is that you can shoot lots of Trap Targets without going to a mjor shoot. Maybe just shoot the state and if you have your minimuns you could get a state award?

    Thanks for your input,

    Jim
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    To earn a position on a State Trapshooting Team, one must demonstrate a high degree of trapshooting proficiency at many different shoots held under different conditions.

    Virginia requires a minimum of 5,000 total targets that must include 1,500 singles, handicap and doubles.

    HaveGunWillTravel- I, like you, believe that 500 doubles targets is a very pleasant way to spend an afternoon.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey Guys,

    This goes into another area, who is in charge of all of this.

    When I go to a big shoot, I see lots of really large motor homes with lots of really high priced guns.

    Now, are they in charge, is there a regular shooter in charge of your state. Not mine, he is a business man. I do not know if that is good or bad but the realy affluent shooters shoot a lot and are well known. They also get on the boards.

    Now with that in mind doesn't it just seem rational that the target requirements will go up because they can afford to shoot the number of targets needed for an award.

    By the way I have never won an award because I have never shot enough targets but my average is as good or better than some who have won an award so where does the compititon thing come in.

    If I buy eoungh targets maybe I could win an award?

    Take care,

    Jim
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim- I believe the "competition thing" you mentioned does have a role in team selection. Competing against others 5 times and preforming well is not equivalent to competing against other shooters 50 times and doing well. To compete, one must go out and compete. This does require a commitment of both time and resources.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jerry- I think you like to meet anyone in a shoot off.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    Well, I don''t know about where you are at but here in Missouri we have Leo as the team captain then 9 other shooters that are just a tad worse than him. Within less than a couple % points out of the lead a whole bunch of shooters on their tail. I have a composite average of right at 91% and am way behind some really good shooters that I know of and shoot with regularly. Like I said earlier, that last 4% is the toughest to get.

    I doubt if there is a single person on the Missouri team that shoots just the minimum amount of targets and shoot at only cream puff targets. The fact remains, no matter how many you shoot or where they are at, you STILL have to hit them.

    John
     
  13. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey,

    I would like to shoot good enough so I don't have to see you in a shoot off :eek:).

    This thread is tough because there are us that consider ourselves to be everyday average shooters. Might break a 100 once a year. Than there are those that can manage their scores if the need arose. Than there are those that have never and may never break a 100. I feel lunky to have been able to break a few 100s interspaced though with lots of not so good scores.

    My main point or irriatation is that just becuase I can not shoot thousands of targets every year I am excluded from the competition. It makes it just a money thing.

    I know some people could not afford to shoot X number of targets. Well I can afford to shoot 6X their X, so that is not fair either.

    What can be done to even the field out or can it be made more fair.

    In all honesty when I look at some of the averages of the winners in my arena, they are kind of poor scores. But they did pay to shoot all the required tournaments. I chose not to.

    Anyway thanks for all the input. I hope more people will look at this and continue this thread for awhile yet.

    Take care,

    Jim
    Almost a Trap Shooter :eek:)
     
  14. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Jim


    You can pick any minimum target requirement number you want but its almost certain someone will use the same argument you used as a reason to lower those requirements.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  15. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey,

    My original point was only 13 shooters qualified for about 30 state awards but there were on 13 winners.

    That is the point. There are shooter with less targets that shot better.

    Take care,

    Jim
     
  16. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Jim


    Someone earlier ask you to define what you think the "fair" number of targets ought to be to make your state team. Why dont you simply answer that question instead of implying the system is not fair. Its a simple question and I can quess you have some number in mind. When you answer that question then I think you can have a meaningful discussion. By the way what state are your from?


    Jerry Hauser
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim - I have a suspicion that we do not have the full information to help answer your question. Are the "state awards" a place on the stat team? How many targets were required? With only 13 shooters qualifying for the awards, the requirements must be very high or the number of shooters in your state very low. Have you discussed this issue with your state board?

    Discussing an issue with a lack of knowledge about the facts of the issue rarely is useful. I do recognize that not knowing the facts around an issue will not stop some from forming opinions.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Hey,

    I do not know what is fair.

    OSSA requires 1200 12 gauge, 1000 20, 28, and 410 plus 500 doubles.

    OTA requires 1500, 1000 and 500 doubles.

    What is fair? If only 10% of the total shooters shoot the minimums doesn't that sound odd? Is it out of reach? I do not know how many shooters qualified for OTA awards only OSSA.

    I know what my opinion is but it is obvious that the boards in this case feel more is better, but my question is. Is it better?

    I am not asking anyone to go out on a limb :eek:). Just wanted to hear some of your thoughts thats all. I am not slamming anybody.

    It is my belief that this systems allows the award to be devalued because of the exclusiveness of the awards, ie, only the shooters willing to spend that much money may obtain the award.

    You all take care,

    Jim
     
  19. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    Then you need to do as Pat said and follow through and bring it up at the state shoot meeting. I assume that you have one. Or at least talk to your delegate. Since Ohio has a lot of shooters, I guess that you are not from Ohio but instead maybe Oklahoma? The state shoot should be coming right up. I still don't think those numbers are out of line, they are less than Missouri. I only go to two big shoots a year and manage to get the targets without too much trouble. You just have to decide how bad you want it. And you can always go to a couple of marathons. Talk your home club into putting one on, no different than any other ATA event. John
     
  20. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Jim


    The number of targets required is normally set in order to ensure the people making the team have demonstrated some level of skill. That can’t be done with some minimal number of targets. To illustrate the point look at the following hypothetical.


    Shooter # 1 misses making the state team with an overall average of 93% shooting 2000 targets because the minimum is 3000.


    Shooter # 2 makes last place on the state team with an overall average of 92.8% shooting 5500 targets.


    The following year the target requirements are lowered to 2000.


    Shooter # 1 now makes last place on the state team with an overall average of 93% shooting 2000 targets the same as last year.


    Shooter # 2 misses making the team with an overall average of 92.8% shooting 5500 targets because his average wasn’t high enough.


    The question for you is “if the state team is to represent the best shooters in the state which scenario meets that requirement”?


    Jerry Hauser
     
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