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== AMISH MUZZLE-LOADER DEATH ==

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by GW22, Dec 20, 2011.

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  1. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Wow, this sad and kind of hard to believe.

    Basic gun handling rule violation, with horrible result. Totally avoidable tragedy.

    -Gary
     
  2. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    A muzzle loader killing someone at 1/5 miles- that sounds like a fish story to me.
     
  3. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    I think it's plausable, Depending on the shape of the bullet and MV.

    The old 45-70 with the 405 gr bullet and a MV less than 1500FPS will travel over 3000 yds to first impact.



    Jim
     
  4. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Bullets can't travel 1.5 miles? That would be laughable if the subject weren't so serious.
     
  5. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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  6. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    I guess we will find out. A muzzleloader would have to be set at the perfect trajectory and be down hill. I think there distance may be off a bit. I would not say it is impossible, especially if it was a high powered rifle. A 280 gr. chunk of lead would do damage if it fell from the sky and hit you in the head. Jon
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    <i>A 280 gr. chunk of lead would do damage if it fell from the sky and hit you in the head.</i>

    It would hurt, but doubtful it would penetrate skull.

    I would, however, believe that a bullet fired from a muzzleloader could kill at 1.5 miles.
     
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Shooting ANY kind of rifle without a backstop is moronic.

    If you shoot stright up the velocity will increase all the way down. I don't have the physics right at hand but I am sure there was a large vertical component in the trajectory.

    No one deserves to be killed by stupidity.

    HM
     
  9. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    <i>If you shoot straight up the velocity will increase all the way down.</i>

    No. An object such as a bullet in free fall will reach terminal velocity where the air resistance equals the force of gravity. What that velocity is depends on the weight of the bullet, and how it is oriented as it is falling, whether that be tumbling, or perfectly nose-down, and its shape (or coefficient of resistance, which is dependent on some of the previously noted items.)
     
  10. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    Several years back at a First Night Erie celebration (New Years Eve community gathering with entertainment, food etc.) I and my daughter were in the city park that was the hub of the celebration. Being particularly attuned to the sound of distant gun shots,I heard four or five pops. They were muffled a good bit but still recognizable as potential gun shots.

    As we were leaving about twenty minutes later, we saw an ambulance working on someone that had been standing in the street about 200 yards from us. The place was packed. On the morning news New Years Day there was a brief report of a young girl being transported to the hospital from where we were. Later in the day and then the next day in the newspaper there were additional details.

    The ambulance was called when the girl, for no apparent reason, simply collapsed in the street. Preliminary hospital examination did not find any obvious injury but a x-ray of her head, which was published, showed a bullet lodged near the base of her brain. Closer examination showed that she had been struck on the top of the head but there was only a small entry wound which did not show external blood and the wound was covered by her hair.

    The bullet had traveled along her skull to the base of her brain where it damaged the brain/spinal cord area.

    Subsequent police investigation showed that it was a .45 (as I recall) bullet with no expansion. They also searched the street and nearby building roofs and found one or two more similar spent bullets.

    Citizen reports led them to investigate someone who fired shots into the air at the time of the girl being shot. When the police tracked the suspect down and confiscated his handgun for testing, it was a ballistic match to the bullets found on the roof and the one that hit the girl. He was tried and found guilty of some charge that was a lot less serious than I would have preferred but the jury spoke and did not convict on the more serious charges.

    The distance from where the shooter fired to where the girl fell (direct ground linear measure) came out to be about 1700 yards. So yes, it is entirely possible to hit and injure someone, possibly fatally, with a .45 bullet from a handgun at close to a mile distance. A rifle, muzzle loader or center fire, with its higher velocity, would obviously extend this range.

    The girl survived but spent a good amount of time in the hospital. I do not know what, if any, permanent brain injury she may have suffered.

    This was back probably in the early 90s since my daughter won the tickets to the event for her entry in a grade school art contest celebrating First Night Erie.
     
  11. i_shoot

    i_shoot Member

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    I remember a couple of years ago around Atlanta a young boy sitting in church for New Years was killed by a .45 cal bullet that was fired in celebration. The police finally found the guy who shot up in the air.


    Here's the strange thing. The bullet came down through the roof & hit the kid in the top of his head.



    Strange story but true,
    i_shoot
     
  12. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    I think Mass needs a new ballistics expert. This Greg Danas is obviously lacking in knowledge of long range ballistics.


    Jim
     
  13. Texshooter

    Texshooter Member

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    Straight Up is fairly safe, but at an angle the bullet will retain sufficent velocity to kill when it comes down. 1.5 mile is within the limits shown by those early studies. In 1992 at the Yuma Proving Grounds, they shot a Sharps Black Powder rifle starting out at a muzzle velocity of only 1,216 fps and the bullet landed over 3,600 yards away! AJ
     
  14. slayer

    slayer Well-Known Member

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    Are all of the Amish named Yoder? Just askin'
     
  15. BigBadBob

    BigBadBob TS Member

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    Yoder, Schwartz, Borntrager, Miller, Mast, Eicher are just a few Amish names. I grew up in NE Missouri, Pike County. Lots of Amish families in the western part of Pike County.
     
  16. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    One thing I have to wonder about in this situation is why the press felt it was so necessary to headline that it was an Amish girl. It could have just as easily been a Southern Baptist, a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Wiccan, a Druid, an atheist or any other person. Why headline Amish since her death did not involve anything particular to the Amish community other than that the idiot who fired into the air was also Amish. Does the fact that she was found near a horse drawn buggy make it any different than if she were found near "her" car or bike or snowmobile or whatever?
     
  17. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    I thought that was the word for "Hello", in Amish.
     
  18. FalconSprint

    FalconSprint TS Member

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    This is why my Dad always hammered the "know your backstop" rule home over and over. True story: When I was a kid, a telephone lineman was found hanging by his belt on top of a pole, dead. Thoughts were heart attack, electric line, etc. Autopsy finds a bullet hole thru the center of his heart. Turns out that 2 kids on a farm, a mile away were shooting pigeons with a single shot .22 rifle, up in the barn loft.
     
  19. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I think the relevance of this poor girl being Amish is that helps us understand how it was that she was out driving a horse drawn buggy in that part of the country. I'm sure the victim was proud of who she was and wouldn't mind the use of the adjective.

    The other part of the tragedy is that it wasn't that long ago that a bunch of Amish school kids got shot up by some creep so the community is particularly sensitive to shooting deaths in that area. Keep in mind that when the story broke not that much was known about what happened, getting the news out with as much detail as possible may help the truth come out.

    beyond that I guess they could have just printed that a 15 year old female was killed somewhere at sometime in some fashion and it really isn't worth further consideration.
     
  20. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    A 40 gr. 22 lr. shot at 1,400 fps is traveling at 404 fps at 1,000 yards and has 14 ft.lb. of energy.
     
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