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Advantages of High hold ?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bruce Em, Feb 19, 2009.

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  1. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Compared to holding at roof level, is there any advantage to hold a high or level gun?

    Does High gun assure that you are breaking the bird at the same distance?

    Does that consistency come into play over the long run?

    If you hold down at the house you may be shooting a straightaway much closer than say a hard right. The pattern diameter is smaller at closer range making a harder target.

    If you held high or level gun for all targets, are you seeing the target at the same distance out where you can hit it better?

    opinions?
     
  2. djpk69

    djpk69 TS Member

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    My fitter (who has shot MANY LIVE BIRDS) once said that "Trap is so EASY.....hold high and just move left or right" Didn't work for me. ...but try it once.
     
  3. BMC

    BMC Member

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    It is my opinion and experience that a person must have a good grasp on 'timing' and be fully confident on where their gun shoots in order to be successful at holding high. But then again, it depends on what a person considers high.
     
  4. RogerNRA

    RogerNRA TS Member

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    Less gun movement is always better,,,,,,,,,,,Roger
     
  5. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    On a windy day.. you give the targets PLENTY time to dip.. and dive.. Makes trap alot more fun than holding low.. and smoking them before the wind gets a chance to make the target do all sorts of wild things.. I ... on the other hand perfer the target ALWAYS on top of my barrel.. But.. to each his own..
     
  6. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Bryce.. That was an excellent view from a 2 eyed shooter.. I forgot to mention I am a 1 eyed shooter..so.. I'm always looking over the barrel.. I fully agree with what you said for a 2 eyed shooter.. It works well for me on a calm day from short yardage.. but on a windy day.. I must hold a low gun..or miss because the target is dipping and diving..
     
  7. cls

    cls Member

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    - Better visibility (assuming you shoot with both eyes open)

    - Less gun movement

    cls
     
  8. 12Gagejon

    12Gagejon Member

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    This old set of eyes wants to hold it lower to see birds a little faster easier to raise gun to target than lower and move to side jon
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    My opinion is that clearly seeing the target leave the house is the key. Where you hold your gun to accomplish this is secondary.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    It might be secondary, but very important to adjust hold to variations of target flight do to wind direction and speed. HMB
     
  11. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    Ditto to PBB's remark.

    Shoot fast before God gets a hold of it.

    Whiz
     
  12. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    YES!
    PROBABLY.
    YES!
    CORRECT.!
    SOMETIMES.

    Oh I'm sorry one eyed shooters need to adapt to the sport differently.

    Emulate and seek the help of Nora Martin.

    The best way to say this is a one eyed shooter should hold a lower gun and focus over the house. When doing this your central focus should never wander back towards the trap house.(if you do your eyes are going in the opposite direction of the target)

    Trap shooting is a rhythm and you need to practice shooting the targets at the same speed.(same speed translates in to same distance)

    If we could put a timer on the call to shot time of the best shooters we would see that the variation in time from call to shot for any trap presentation would vary little say 10%. Less experienced shooters with low hold points say on the top of the house could have a variation of more than 40%.

    This is not due to the hold point but the improper utilization of vision.

    I have come under fire for saying this before but the most important thing in shooting is how you look at a moving target and how well you maintain focus on it. Not equipment, eye dominance, gun fit, or visual acuity is as important as how well we maintain focus on the target.

    I'll quote Bryce quoting Phil Kiner "As Phil Kiner says ..... If the gun shoots where you look and you look at the target well and you keep your head on the stock you will break every clay !!"
    I have had some disagreements with Phil on some vision Issues but in a nutshell the above quote is right on target!
    The key to his statement is "you look at the target well" note he is says nothing about looking at your gun or anything else. Just the target!

    Joe Goldberg
     
  13. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Bruce, here is my take.

    Pat says "My opinion is that clearly seeing the target leave the house is the key. Where you hold your gun to accomplish this is secondary." Pat is 1001% correct. If I do not see that target leave the house, I almost always miss it.

    I've tried all of the approaches mentioned above, plus a few more. I don't have a dominant eye, and I shoot two eyed.

    If I hold at, or below the top of the trap house it takes a while to catch up to the target. That gives my left eye more chance to take over. It does, about 1-3 times per sub-event. The only way I can speed thing up is to shoot a very high shooting gun (22" @ 40yards), and make a quick move to target.

    If I hold above the house about half the distance between the top of the house and a horizontal gun, I can look under and "around" the barrel, see the bird leave the house, then make a very short, quick move to it. For this method I need a POI between 9" and 12" at 40 yards.

    If I hold the gun Horizontally, I cannot pick up the bird as it leaves the house, but if I set the gun up to shoot way high (22"), I can make a horizontal move to the target and break it. BTW, this doesn't work if you set up for a straight away. You have to hold in the middle so the move to a hard left and right target is the same distance.

    Right now, method 2 seems to work the best, especially if I've done a lot of pistol shooting that week.
     
  14. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    I always train shooters to hold on the front edge of the roof. No exceptions. Unless shooting in a significant headwind, I hold on the roof. I do not believe in a Trainer telling a student to "Do as I say, NOT as I do".

    Once that shooter moves into the elite shooting arena, then a higher gun hold may or may not work for them.

    A good shooter shows folks how THEY shoot. A good Trainer helps the shooter fine tune and utilize their shooting technique.

    I am 60-ish, shoot right handed two eyed, but am left handed and left eye dominant. I have diabetes, a broken back, a fused bone in my neck, am legally blind without glasses, and suffer from balance issues.

    Is there ANYONE out there that wants to shoot the way I do?

    I THOUGHT NOT. LOL

    As a Trainer, I will help you define and refine YOUR shooting technique. If you are a new shooter and do not have this in your toolbox, I can help you establish a known, reliable, and repeatable technique. When you get some miles under your belt, we can further customize this to YOUR physique and preferences.

    What's not to love about this sport? :^)
     
  15. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I have both Kiner's and Harlan's DVDs. Harlan's method has never worked for me. Higher gun hold and just push to the target.

    However, lately I've been shooting a lot more clays. I've been practicing the flashlight drill gun mount, ala Gil and Vicki Ash. The quartering move is practiced (with mag lite in the 12 gauge IC choked barrel) by keeping the light in the corner of a wall-meets-ceiling spot in your house. It's sort of a push move to the target.

    So this is really what Harlan is talking about. No shot in trap really requires much of a swing. Hard lefts from station one and hard rights from station five are still quartering birds, no really requiring much swing.

    I have yet to apply this to trap, so this is all theory. Take it with a grain of salt, and let me know what you think.

    Danny
     
  16. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    I guess I'll go a step beyond this question.. which really has no one answer..Where do you hold for your first shot on doubles???? For any single.. I would certainly hold no higher than that.. because I'd be practicing something that would certainly not help my doubles.. True.. I know where both birds are going..but why have so many different styles.. Holding either on the front edge of the house.. or below works for ME.. a one eye shooter.. I can pick up the target quickly,get to it quickly.. and break it quickly.. For singles..for me its all over in .400 of a second.. or less.. Sure.. I could ride the target and use .800 to 1.200 seconds.. All that extra time to SCREW UP.. Now.. some shooters do well holding a high gun..and that's great for them.. Even some bunker shooters hold out a little more than the dot on the top of the bunker pad.. BUT.. the gun is always pointed down..and the target get on top of the barrel fast.. AND.. in bunker you could.(you'll have 5 per round) grasscutters.. I'm glad I always held a low gun..and will till I can no longer shoot. My syle has taken me farther than I ever thought I'd get to and my many great coaches determined it was best for me.. BUT.. I'm not you.. Each of us must develop his or her own style..and what works for them..Then adjust for age.. Good shooting to all of you and hope you find what works BEST for YOU.. As always.. All Good.. Pray for our Country.. It's in need of prayers now.. Maybe we can save it.. and the sportsd we love so much.. Mike
     
  17. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    thanks Guys,

    I have been willing to try different things in order to come to a better understanding of the issues at hand. I shoot trap skeet, Intl skeet, Bunker, and sporting as well as hunting and farm pest control. Long distance Pigeons are TOUGH!

    In this example experiment, I was told by an old hand to try the high hold and I noted that it MAY force me to break the bird at the same distance for all angles (something an OLD pro skeet shooter told me). How many can say they do that or wish to do that? I hadn't even considered it before. I know I usually break different angles at different distances and may explain why I miss straightaways and hit the angles. I have zero fear of stations 1 or 5 anymore.

    I dont ride the target, I start with a little trigger pressure and "hose the target" as I see it. I know humans can point very accurately and the trigger is continuous and subconscious (and fast). I see many swing, stop , then shoot, literally. Not me.

    I prefer to use two eyes but as I tell my pistol students " be sure to use at least one eye" Havent made up my mind but believe dominance changes when a gun is in the way.

    Things that worked well for me, for different reasons include:

    shoot trap gun down with good results (24's). Per above, I definitely see the target better that way and smoothly move to the bird DURING the mounting process. I am not hitting these super close to the house but I am hitting them much to the amazment of the trap only type shooters.

    faster loads; (1250).

    Less recoil; I use 7/8 oz but and ran my 1st 25 with fast 3/4's

    Vision; I stare to infinity and my eyes pick up the bird in peripheral vision where motion is detected better. I take note again of the above content to see them better and feel I need to do that exact thing better to improve scores.

    I note that bunker shooters hold on the house as I usually did but again I wanted to experiment and learn somethings.

    Smooth but aggressive swing with less gun motion but still not a poke or a stab.

    Gun speed vs lead is a big deal, especially in FITASC and International. I am coming to understand the value of consistency (in swing and trigger) in all shotgun sports.

    I have seen high speed crossers break, or not, with the EXACT SAME visuals. In some cases (high gun speed) almost no lead, and others, with lots of maintained lead. And of course misses in both.

    I appreciate everyones input and really enjoy this board, even the jerks :)


    best regards
     
  18. Bridger

    Bridger Member

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    I've been holding on the leading edge of the trap house in an effort to see the bird as soon as I can. Unfortunately with my poor vision that often means I see a streaking target. I have just started watching Harlan's DVD and am going to give his ideas an honest try. Holding a high gun is going to be difficult for me but it may help my vision problems.
     
  19. comp 1

    comp 1 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you people want to see the bird the instant it leaves the house? It's traveling faster at that moment than any time in it's flight--no one can get a GOOD look at the target moving that fast. I understand the need to determine target direction but I see way too many shooters "chasing the streak" of the target and stopping the gun or poking at the target resulting in a miss--You can hold a little less than horizontal over the roof,look out 15 yards or so into 'nothingness" and still get a good look at the target and smoke it without riding it into the sunset.By the way thinking you can shoot a high shooting gun and just move left or right doesn't work-- the gun must move along a rising ANGLED path--just left or right causes spot shooting and misses behind.
     
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