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AA Hulls and P-W presses

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Unknown1, Jul 18, 2011.

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  1. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    I thought I had this thing with AA 2-piece hulls and their base wads figured out: any 2-piece hull with a box around the "AA" was a reject, anything that said "HS" on the head stamp was a given and the hulls with the plain "AA" were the improved versions with locked-in base wads. Seems that last part ain't always true.

    I noticed that the shot load was higher than normal in one of my hulls so when I finished crimping it I cut it open and found that the base wad was lifted high enough that there was no primer in it. I'm figuring that the primer pushed the wad up since P-W presses don't hold the wads down like MECs do.

    This was a "Light" target load with a plain "AA" logo. When I sliced the hull lengthwise I found that there were no ridges around the bottom of the base wad to lock it into the hull like I expected. I had been under the impression that "plain logo" 2-piece hulls were safe.

    I cut open some other hulls that looked identical; of 10, 6 had ridges, 4 didn't.

    I cut open 6 "Heavy" target loads that looked like the "Light" ones I had just cut: 5 with ridges 1 without.

    I found that all the hulls marked "Xtra Light", "40 Years" and "Low Recoil" (6 each) had ridges around the base wads (small sample, so no conclusions).

    I also noticed that while most of my "HS" hulls had a line under the "AA" a good number didn't and that made them look like the one that the base wad lifted in unless I looked at the head stamp for the HS on every similar hull.

    With no way to tell which "plain logo" , non-HS wads have locked-in base wads and which don't, I guess I'm gonna have to pre-prime all of those on a Lee a couple times until the primers start to leak.

    It's always something...

    MK
     
  2. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

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    That's why I have given up on AA hull's,Except for the old style!!Always some type of problem with AA and PW!!PJ
     
  3. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    Unknown1, the problem you describe is exactly why some people have stopped using the new AA hull all together. Having to remember which ones were the problem and which ones are ok is a royal P.I.T.A.. They have found it much easier to look for a green or gold hull with the word "Remington" and either "STS" or "Nitro 27" clearly printed on it. Problems have gone away instantly.

    JK
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "I'm figuring that the primer pushed the wad up since P-W presses don't hold the wads down like MECs do."

    The problem with these hulls falls solely on the Winchester hulls not on the loader they are reloaded on. If that is all it takes, the simple act of repriming then lets lay the blame where it belongs, on the hull.

    Of course it is easier to blame the reloading tool than the real problem!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"Of course it is easier to blame the reloading tool than the real problem!!!!!"</blockquote>Bob, you need to improve your reading comprehension and quit looking for things in peoples' statements to pick fights over. It's gotten old and annoying!

    The hull had a design flaw. We know that. No one said it didn't, but it requires the involvement of either a P-W or a Spolar press to turn that design flaw into something more.

    Those 2 presses, by design, do not support the base wad from the inside like the MEC does. So, loaded on a MEC, the design deficiency is a non-issue; it can't happen during loading.

    Sorry you can't understand that from what's been written or can't grasp the fact that something that occurs on one brand of press doesn't occur on another.

    MK
     
  6. TjayE

    TjayE Member

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    Thank You "Unknown1" for your statement. You are "right on"
     
  7. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"How come other shells load fine in the P/W vs A/A,and the problem is not there?"</blockquote>

    The only other shells I load on a P-W are Remingtons. They're a 1 piece design; they don't have a separate base wad that could be moved during the loading process.

    There are other hulls that have separate base wads, most of them cheap hulls that really aren't designed for reloading. The problem may well occur with them as well but I don't reload them so I don't know.

    MK
     
  8. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    I'm still waiting for my first moved base wad or any other issues loading new style AA's. They load great on a Spolar!!
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "Bob, you need to improve your reading comprehension and quit looking for things in peoples' statements to pick fights over. It's gotten old and annoying!"

    Well what annoys me is your constant expertise in any thing that is posted. I was not picking a fight over anything. I gave a opinion on the topic I didn't say anything to you directly as I have found that to be a waste of time.

    "The hull had a design flaw. We know that. No one said it didn't, but it requires the involvement of either a P-W or a Spolar press to turn that design flaw into something more."

    This statement is ranks right up there with redesigning the wheel to accommodate ill fitting tires in many cases you seem to lack common sense. It require the Loading tool manufacturers to make a move???? I think it requires the shooter to fess up and admit that Winchester is making an inferior product. Until the shooter decide to boycott this inferiority the problem will persist.

    As long as I am going to be accused of picking fight when I am not then I might just as well be guilty. When ever someone say something you don't agree with you give your opinion. That is all I did no more no less.

    BTW you could have told the whole story with out maligning the PW loader. A design that has been around for at least 50 years. Unlike the new AA hulls.

    You have a nice day now.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    Unkown1,

    I think you might be drawing a conclusion that the data does not support.

    The only two AA hulls I have actually seen and handled where the wad had migrated were both un-reloaded factory shells. This was seen while inspecting the fired hulls prior to loading. So how does re-inserting a new primer push these wads up??

    Further, in the photos I have seen of other reloaded shells with this problem the wad is typically fairly high up in the shell - I believe higher than a primer nose could push one during the insertion process.

    If a wad were to fly out of the shell and barrel as part of the ejecta a MEC will be no better than any other loader in terms of the issues one would experience while reloading this shell.

    I have had MEC's, Hornady, RCBS, Dillon, and P/W loaders - all are good - all have their quirks - none is perfect in my mind.

    If you watch slow motion video of the firing of large guns/cannon you will notice that after the ejecta has left the barrel there is actually a reversal of air flow (vacuum) back into the barrel. One can assume that a similar process occurs with shotguns, so one can project that the movement of the base wad could be from an internal vacuum in the barrel.

    I am not saying this is so, but it certainly is a possibility.
     
  11. slayer

    slayer Well-Known Member

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    Problem with AA hulls? It's all I use. Guess I'm lucky to be using a MEC. I didn't know What a base wad was until this post. Defective?? Bill in MI
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "Problem with AA hulls? It's all I use. Guess I'm lucky to be using a MEC."

    Well anyone that believes that a base wad that can be moved by simply inserting a primer is safe to use. Please let me know where you shoot so I can be some where else when you are shooting.

    Any two piece hull is less reliable than a one piece in my opinion. Not to mention not as safe.

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"I gave a opinion on the topic I didn't say anything to you directly as I have found that to be a waste of time."</blockquote>Will wonders never cease? The boy finally exhibits a glimmer of understanding about something!

    MK
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Aw gee who is picking a fight Now???????

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"...Further, in the photos I have seen of other reloaded shells with this problem the wad is typically fairly high up in the shell - I believe higher than a primer nose could push one during the insertion process...."</blockquote>HSLDS... I understand your point. I've had a few of the early 2 piece hulls come out of the gun with the base wad all the way up at the crimp folds. It may well be that the base wad in these hulls was already pushed up out of position from a previous reload when the hull was reloaded a second time.

    Had I not seen the unusual height of the shot load in the hull just before crimping I would not have been able to tell that the base wad was out of position AFTER the hull was crimped. The crimp looked normal , but when I cut the hull around the middle, the pressure of the folded wad legs immediately clued me that something was wrong.

    MK
     
  16. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Unknown1, The idea that some AA hulls are safer than others, that some have been improved regarding the basewad, is nothing more than conjecture. It is all made up. I still have many unopened cases of AA's that go way back to the beginning of the separate basewad design. I have never seen a loose basewad. I think that a loose basewad is probably defective at the time of manufacture, as HSLDS has suggested, and a PW press has nothing to do with. I load on a PW also and I don't see how a primer could possibly dislodge the basewad in a properly construced hull. The basewad is crimped into the brass at the bottom. I have never been able to get one loose without destroying the hull. I don't understand how some can have a coffee can full of basewads and I have never seen even one.


    I think the MEC could make the situation more dangerous by pushing down a loose basewad. If I have a loose basewad I don't want the thing pushed back down. Can a loose one even be pushed back into place? I never put a shell into the chamber without looking down the barrel so I don't worry about it.
     
  17. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <blockquote>"Can a loose one even be pushed back into place?"</blockquote>I don't know; I never tried. But using the Lee to pre-prime hulls will let me know if I have a base wad out of place without the complication of feeling additional resistance that might be caused by other hulls at other stations.

    Every raised base wad I've ever examined closely has shown every indication of having been in it's proper place at one time. I'm working under the premise that the priming process lifts it out of place. The Lee will keep that from happening or alert me to hulls that it's already happened to.

    <blockquote>"I never put a shell into the chamber without looking down the barrel so I don't worry about it."</blockquote>Neither do I, even with one piece hulls.

    MK
     
  18. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    This sure makes me wonder how many of us old timers survived reloading in the 60's. Most of us shot those old Federal, Remington Shureshot, Alcan, Sears, and Winchester X-Perts until the heads popped off, or shot through the barrels-base wads included. Very few guns blew up during that era of Model 12's, 870's and Browning Lightnings.

    Of course, old Harry Young blew up a Merkel and Browning Lightning. Most shooters refused to shoot with old Harry and he wore those "battle scars" on his arm to the grave!!
     
  19. slayer

    slayer Well-Known Member

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    I'm just getting started into this "reloading" since my recent retirement. I used to use the 4-pack Walmart cheapies. I have had one of my shooting buddies remark that the sound of my previous shells was inconsistant as compared to the reloads. I have observed better breaks and higher scores, generally. One of my friends uses AA's and does not reload, so I have a constant supply of AA hulls. I will continue to use those, despite the warnings of some. I will be into my 3rd reload soon so beware, Bob. I shoot in the mid michigan area. LOL Bill in MI
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "One of my friends uses AA's and does not reload, so I have a constant supply of AA hulls. I will continue to use those, despite the warnings of some. I will be into my 3rd reload soon"

    Bill laugh all you wish but free hulls to load is no reason to sacrifice safety of yourself and those on the line with you.

    Safety is nothing to laugh at I don't load anything that isn't a one peice hull there is to much at stake. JMO

    Bob Lawless
     
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