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AA 20ga HS Hulls Buckling

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hitapair, Mar 7, 2010.

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  1. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    Loaded a few HS 20 ga hulls tonight and about 50% of them buckled about 1/2" above the brass. Didn't matter if I used Win wads or CB's. Pre HS hulls loaded w/o a problem. Any suggestions?
     
  2. winchesterm12

    winchesterm12 TS Member

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    Change to windjammer wads the softer cushion section seems to colapse enough to keep the hulls from buckling
     
  3. loop02

    loop02 Member

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    Check a shell after it is crimped, but before the final crimp. I fit is not buckled there, raise your final crimp die.
     
  4. mike cross

    mike cross TS Member

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    Buckling WWHS cases. You can avoid this by using 30-40 pounds of pressure when setting the wad. The HS case has a seperate base wad versus the integral base wad as with the older compression formed hulls, that catches the wad skirt when the wad is pressed home. The 40 pounds forces the wad skirt into the base wad. Almost like the old days with fibre wads. Normally with the plastics of today you don't need any pressure to set the wad, but in this case you can avoid the buckling problem with wad pressure. You can also use a bulkier powder which fills up the volume which keeps the wad from contacting the sides of the base wad.
     
  5. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    Thanks for the comments. Will give them a try.
     
  6. Bob_K

    Bob_K Well-Known Member

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    Here is what Winchester used to say on their website. The machine adjustments they refer to were for the MEC machines in their figures.
    QUOTE

    Reloading the New AA® High Strength Hull

    Winchester has designed the new 12-guage AA high strength hull to reload with the same reloading data as the old AA hull. However, on some reloading machines, even though the components and reloading data are the same, there may need to be a minor adjustment made to the reloading machine to optimaze load fit and appearance.

    Some adjustments that can be made:

    Shooters need to lower the starter crimp or pie crimp (Fig 1). Proper adjustment should eliminate the slight buckle some shooter see if this adjustment is not made.

    The shell in Fig 2 shows an example of the crimp after adjusting the starter crimp stage. Shooters should not be able to put a pencil eraser down into the shell after the proper adjustment.

    Another adjustment that can be made is to the wad ram (Fig 3). Most reloading machines are setup for 25 to 30 lbs. of pressure. An increase of wad pressure (up to 45 lbs.) will help seat the wad, and will help the final crimping on the shell.

    On some reloading machines with a tapered crimp die, be sure that the final crimping stage on the reloading machine is clean and has no residue build up.

    Please contact your reloading machine manufacturer if you need additional assistance making the proper adjustments to your reloader.


    Shooter have found that after making a slight adjustment to the reloading machines good quality crimps and long reloading life are consistently obtained with the new AA high strength hull. The old style AA hull can also be reloaded with the new adjustments.

    END QUOTE
     
  7. kiv-c

    kiv-c Member

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    You may also be having the issue of the bottom edge of the wad catching on the edge of the internal base wad of the HS hull. I had this problem on the 12ga HS hulls when I switched from the pink Claybuster wad to the Lightning (Windjammer replacement) CB wad. Turns out that the pink wad has a tapered or beveled base and the lightning did not.

    I switched back to the pink wad and the problem disappeared.

    Kiv
     
  8. chrisg

    chrisg Member

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    switch to a downrange yellow 20ga. wad and it will solve all your problems.
     
  9. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    How could the wad make the hull buckle? The wad pushes against the bottom of the hull and not the walls of the hull.
     
  10. crk

    crk Member

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    I used to see this on occasion even with STS and AA hulls in 12 gauge too. Just a matter of what the machine was adjusted for when I went to the other hulls. Adjust the crimp station heights as described above to get rid of it.
     
  11. kiv-c

    kiv-c Member

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    Ideally, the wad pushes against the bottom of the hull.

    In practice, the wad sometimes tips and catches on the the edge of the base wad in the HS hull, preventing it from seating to the bottom. Now the wad is higher, the shot in the wad cup is higher, and the crimper cannot push the shot/wad to the depth that it is preset to. Somethings gotta give; in this case it's the hull with a resultant buckle in the sidewall.

    Kiv
     
  12. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Kiv, have you actually seen this happen? I have never experienced it. I have even tried to make it happen, inserting non tapered wads by hand, I failed. It takes very little pressure to push the wad into the AA basewad.
     
  13. kiv-c

    kiv-c Member

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    Yup! See my earlier post at 8:41 AM. The problem turned out to be the CB Lightning wads catching on the top edge of the base wad. At the very least, I would get a "domed" crimp because it didn't seat down far enough. Only happened a couple of times in 100+ rounds. When I cut the shell down it was quite obvious what happened.

    Switching back to my original wad eliminated the problem.

    Kiv
     
  14. Shooting Jack

    Shooting Jack Active Member

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    I've had the problem of the hulls buckling or a ring around the hull about 1/2 inch above the brass. I've had it to do this with HS hulls and claybuster HS wads. It happens about every 10th shell still even after I have adjusted it as recommended. I haven't found a fix for it yet as I have adjusted it over and over. Jackie B.
     
  15. kiv-c

    kiv-c Member

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    Jackie, just curious what brand loader are you using? I have a PW 900.

    Kiv
     
  16. Shooting Jack

    Shooting Jack Active Member

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    I'm loading with a Mec 8567 Grabber. I've checked alignment and everything else I can think of. Wish I knew the answer. Considered sending unit to Mec as it is several years old but it loaded other hulls ok before HS. Finished shells look really good except for ring around middle. Once they get that ring it will be there permanently. Jackie B.
     
  17. chrisg

    chrisg Member

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    Sidewall buckle is almost always caused by lack of space inside the hull. Whether it is from too much shot or the wad not seated correctly or the wad being too tall for the specific combination of shot and powder you are using, I can assure you if you can get more space in the hull your buckling problem will go away. That is one big plus I have found with the downrange wad, it seems to allow any combination of shot and powder to work because it takes up less space than the others. When I used the winchester or the claybuster wad with Unique powder I always had a space issue, I was able to resolve it by going to International Clays. This powder is a lot denser than others and therefore takes up less space. Some people claim it makes too much pressure compared to other powders but I have never exceeded the factory specs of it and have shot thousands of 20 ga shells without a single problem both with and without a tubeset gun.
     
  18. skeetjunkie

    skeetjunkie TS Member

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    chrisg has it exactly right. I've also found that 20/28 powder is sufficiently dense to give a bit more room in the hull to prevent buckling. Remington RXP wads are a bit shorter than the AA wad and its clones to give you enough room. Finally, the Downrange wad is the best answer as you can use about any 20 gauge powder and still have enough room to prevent case wall buckling.
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    What happens to the wad base that sticks on the hull lip after adding more pressure to seat it? Cut a few of those apart and inspect that wads base. They still shoot but I wonder how much of a variance there may be if those same "forced" wads were compared over a chronograph? I can't see how they could maintain the high chamber pressures necessary for a complete powder burn.

    Hap
     
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