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A Virginia Tech students speaks out on CCW

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Brian in Oregon, Apr 19, 2007.

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  1. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Unarmed and vulnerable<br>
    <br>
    Bradford B. Wiles<br>
    <br>
    Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.<br>
    <br>
    On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: "You need to get out of the building."<br>
    <br>
    Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.<br>
    <br>
    It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.<br>
    <br>
    Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.<br>
    <br>
    I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.<br>
    <br>
    First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.<br>
    <br>
    Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.<br>
    <br>
    Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.<br>
    <br>
    Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.<br>
    <br>
    That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.<br>
    <br>
    I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, "I would feel safer if you had your gun."<br>
    <br>
    The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry in Virginia needs to be changed.<br>
    <br>
    I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government.<br>
    <br>
    This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.<br>
    <br>
     
  2. Trapmike

    Trapmike TS Member

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    AMEN! It is a shame that he had to feel that way, and who know if someone else had a CCP then maybe this whole incident would have end with the loss of fewer innocent lives.

    Mike S.
     
  3. mr.mark

    mr.mark Member

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    I agree, I am down here in TX and am a CCW holder, and have been for several years. I have grown up around pistols and rifles and have carried one or the other in a vehicle or on my person for the greater majority of my life. I am once again taking college classes and when in class, it is not lawful for me to posses a pistol, however I feel that if more people like you and I were allowed to carry then we could stop a threat such as this one before they had a chance to injure that many people. I don't believe it would take many school shootings getting stopped abruptly by licensed pistol packing college kids like us to get the message accross, "Hey we are not defenseless, unarmed subjects!"

    For what it's worth, I agree 100%.................Mr. Mark
     
  4. gamehog2

    gamehog2 TS Member

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    Although I am not a college student I have 2 kids that are. I have a permit in our state and agree whole heartedly with the above conversation. To bring this more into focus the local university is on lock down for an armed gunman as I am typing this...... How long before another nightmare like Virgina Tech takes place. I have been around and used guns for hunting and sport for 40 years and not one of them has commited a crime or killed someone else....
    Darrel
     
  5. tad houston

    tad houston TS Member

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    Very well said, but I am afraid that we will not see this covered in the media.
     
  6. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Hang on to your hat, there are a lot of apologists that may want to flame you.

    Kudos to you for speaking your mind.

    HM
     
  7. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    In a civilized society you would think a person would be able to walk the streets without worry of being mugged, beat, robbed, raped, or pistol whipped. The direct relation to the amount of gun control and personal correlates to more gun control = less personal safety.

    I carry a military security clearance in which Federal Agencies have delved into my life, spoken to my friends, and associates checked my credit records, taken my picture and finger prints the military has my DNA on file so it would seem logical that the assumption that I could be trusted to carry a firearm whenever and wherever I want but no I live in Illinois.

    Now let me say I don't want to conceal a fire arm I want everyone around to see that I have one. Sounds like the old west needs to come back! Think about the current state of affairs what is the best deterrent to a criminal? The knowledge that he or she might have multiple threats that will stop his or her aggression, the ability to engage multiple threats while committing a felony makes being a criminal a dangerous profession.

    A good defense is preceded by an aggressive offense. Take the battle to the enemy I always say. But I live in Illinois just moved a few months ago from Missouri and previously Virginia great state I wish to move back someday. I do not own a pistol but am seriously considering one just because in the event I need one I have one. The only problem is that I would be barred from carrying the pistol to protect myself and others.

    Ronbo
     
  8. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    That is all law enforcement would need to be faced with is a bunch of gun carrying kids at a school. When I respond to an active shooter at a school I know the blue suits or raid jackets are safe and I can pass by them.

    When I come to an average joe in civilian clothes with a gun he will most likely be shot. The average joe will be pointing his gun at everyone, possibly be shooting and when instructed to drop the gun will turn with it and be shot. Just what all law enforcement members need to be faced with and live with.

    Then we will have all the same idiots who are responding to this thread bashing law enforcement because they now dropped the innocent kid who was carrying a legal gun on school grounds. Ya that will sure work!!!!
     
  9. Bawana

    Bawana TS Member

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    The colleges will fight to stop any law letting guns in the class rooms. In Va you have to take a CCW class before you can get your permit. Once you take the class you get a paper that said you finished the class and passed it. You then take that to your sheriffs office fill out your paper work, they take your pic and finger print you. They then do a back ground check then take it to the clerk's office who will call you when the 6 weeks they have to research your back ground. They then take the papers to a judge who then signs the paper work. They do take 6 weeks to. If you are going to college and want to take a gun to school you to keep the school happy take another class by the state police to prove you are able and knowledgeable about guns. I will have to say there will be kids who will out shoot the state police. That has been proven in the past at some places. If the schools are not willing to agree say with this then so be it. Then let them carry for everyones safety.
     
  10. oz

    oz Active Member

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    the colleges fight to have their own police department (campus police) from carrying guns. These police are usually trained (police academy) but the campus know it alls want them unarmed. I worked as a police dispatcher and heard a campus cop screaming for help over the area police band on night. he had stopped a car and had a .44 magnum shoved in his face. he was unarmed. he ran screaming in his radio. the local town police came in a hurry and caught the (suspect). campus police should be armed. I wonder if they are at virginia tech? oz
     
  11. Bawana

    Bawana TS Member

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    An unarmed cop is not a cop but a puppit.
     
  12. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    I urge all the critics with no factual or personal experience to read the below articles. I have first hand knowledge with the training and the standard responses by law enforcement both in conducting homicide investigations and active shooters at schools.
    After Columbine H.S., the training has been incredible for all members of law enforcement throughout the country and world. I will not divulge what we do or don’t do, as there are also to many slime buckets on this thread that have no need to know. For those that think they can run to gun fire and perform at the highest level that is needed without the proper equipment and training you are a huge fool.
    The so called experts here and critics can keep bashing law enforcement based on the limited facts and information you have received, but I do not think this is the proper thread to do so and should find a left wing environment web site that wants to listen. There are many officers that you shoot with which you are not even aware that they are an officer. If you actually know one and he is a good one, why don’t you ask them what is going on, what training do they get, etc....
    We are provided details that the generally public is not aware of and many of us have friends in law enforcement all over the country and world so we usually have the facts and correct information to make a factual case within a short period of time. I assure you, if it was my homicide scene in the dorm room with two killed and good information that the suspect was a domestic partner who was seen leaving the campus; 99% of the campuses in this country would not be locked down. Also the information which was provided to the students would be limited such as is states below in the news article. One last note where I work we do not make the decision if the campuses are locked down or not and that decision rest with the school administrators. We can urge but that is it.
    As for the other issue regarding arming students that is a huge problem which most of you have no idea what problems are associated with that opinion. We make decisions in hundredths of a second and it is way to difficult to judge the intentions of anyone holding a gun without a uniform or raid jacket.

    Out of the hundreds of officers that responded that day I assure you that you never observed one officer that was captured on camera who was not doing what his job or assignment was. We all do not get the chance to run in the building together and other safety concerns have to also be met such as: perimeters, multiple suspects, snipers, numerous locations to secure, etc..

    The massacre took place at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a coed dormitory that houses 895 people, and continuing at least two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building about a half-mile away, authorities said.

    Edmund Henneke, associate dean of engineering, said he was in the classroom building and he and colleagues had just read the e-mail advisory regarding the first shooting and were discussing it when he heard gunfire. He said moments later SWAT team members rushed them downstairs "but the doors were chained and padlocked from the inside." They left the building through a construction area that had not been locked.
    Henneke said it is unfair to criticize the school over the delay in warning.

    "People are absolutely making too much of that. You do what you can," Henneke said. "We have a huge campus. You have to close down a small town and you can''t close down every way in or out."

    On Monday, police believed based on early interviews that the shooting in West Ambler Johnston dorm was a domestic dispute that posed no danger to others.

    "If a murder appears in your neighborhood, and it appears to be a domestic dispute of some sort, the process is not to seal off the neighborhood until there appears to be some serious problem," said Ed Spencer, Virginia Tech's associate vice president for student affairs.
    "West Ambler Johnson was the same situation."
    Virginia State Police, called to the scene after the second shooting, defended the university's early decisions.
    "It's not like anybody said, 'In another two hours, there will be another shooting and 31 people will be dead. Let's wait around for that,' " State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said Thursday.
    When campus and local police arrived at West Ambler Johnston shortly after the 7:15 a.m. 911 call, they found two students shot dead: Emily Hilscher and her neighbor, Ryan Clark. Hilscher's roommate pointed them to the dead student's boyfriend, who had been firing guns at a shooting range recently.
    When police caught up with him off campus, he fueled their suspicion by making inconsistent statements about the whereabouts of his guns.
    As officers surrounded the dorm, school officials considered a lockdown. But with thousands of students on their way to class and with police believing they had a suspect, the idea was scrapped.
    "You shut campus down, you put 9,000 people on the streets," said Lt. Bruce Bradberry of the Blacksburg Police. "Now what are you going to do? You just created a mess."
    University President Charles Steger met with his senior staff and discussed how best to notify students. Some students have suggested administrators could sent people door to door or sent text messages to their cell phones.
    Some schools have equipment that can do just that. Pennsylvania State University, for example, has used the system to alert participating students to everything from school cancellations to road closures.
    Virginia Tech officials began looking at such systems last fall after the escaped inmate case.
    But there are limits.
    "I don't know how you shut down a public campus," said Stephen Abrams, the emergency management coordinator for Penn State.
    Even if they could have notified all Virginia Tech students, officials said it was unclear what they would have said. They didn't want to cause panic and, based on the early police interviews, they believed the shooter was headed off campus.
    At 9:26 a.m. Monday, more than two hours after the first shooting, administrators sent a campus-wide e-mail and a recorded phone message that a homicide had occurred on campus and urging students to be aware of any suspicious activity.
    Nineteen minutes later, while police were interviewing what they thought was their suspect, a second 911 call came in: a much bigger shooting, this time in Norris Hall.
    "Just standing there at the time, the expression on their faces and I'm sure on mine was 'This doesn't make sense. How can there possibly be by coincidence two tragic kinds of events going on in Blacksburg at Virginia Tech at the same time?'" Spencer said.
    Students who have spoken publicly have been hesitant to criticize the university's handling of the case. Thousands of students gave Steger a standing ovation at a memorial service Tuesday.
    "At first I was very, very mad at the administration," said student Jen Meadows, president of a campus sexual assault awareness group.
    But the more she learned about Cho, the more she was convinced nothing that could have been done _ from kicking him out of school to locking down the campus _ to prevent the shootings.
    "This kid, if he didn't end up doing this here, it would have been somewhere else. This had nothing to do with our students or our school," she said.
    John Marshall, Virginia secretary of public safety, said campus officials "made the right decisions based on the best information that they had available at the time."
    Schools are required by federal law to alert students to threats in a timely fashion. No families or survivors have spoken publicly about suing the school for its response. Attorney General Bob McDonnel, who would represent the state and the school, is reviewing the school's response.
    Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine has formed a commission to study the response and Virginia Tech says it will conduct a similar inquiry.
    "The primary purpose is to learn all we can and make recommendations to get better. The primary purpose is not blame, it's not recrimination, it's not pointing fingers," Kaine said Thursday.
    Officials need to balance security with the need to have an open campus, said Steven J. Healy, director of public safety/police chief at Princeton University and president of the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement Administrators.
    "I don't think there's anything we can do to create absolute security," he said.
    "I do think one of the lessons we will learn from this very tragic incident is how to manage warnings and notices to the community ... dealing both with the timeliness of them and the methodology we use to reach them."
    Geller, the State Police spokeswoman, said it's easy in hindsight to connect the two shootings but there was no reason at the time to believe more violence was imminent.
    "You're looking at the totality, you're not looking at it as it happened," she said. "You had a double homicide in a dorm room. A double homicide is not a massacre."
    ___
    Associated Press Writers Justin Pope, Chris Kahn and Kristen Gelineau in Blacksburg, Va., Bob Lewis in Richmond, Va., Genaro C. Armas in State College, Pa., and Randy Pennell in Philadelphia contributed to this story.
     
  13. bill1949

    bill1949 Well-Known Member

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    These cops who think they are the only one trained in weapons or driving make me laugh. You can't get there quick enough to protect people being murdered like they were at VA Tech. People better learn to take care of themselves because the police can't and won't be there to protect you. Nothing against cops, just cold hard facts...Bill
     
  14. no5shooter

    no5shooter Member

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    cnjranch, you make some good points and I do appreciate the situation you describe when "average Joe" citizens are armed where law enforcement is trying to respond to a threat. HOWEVER, what you are describing is the citizens also responding to the threat. Isn't one of the cardinal rules involving shooting to be sure of your target? In the case of law enforcement, shouldn't that also include being sure of what your possible target is doing, i.e. threatening or defending? Sorry I'm not wearing a "raid jacket," but you can damn well bet if some jackass is shooting at me or mine, fire will be returned. It's your responsibility to assess the situation before you start dropping the populace, sir.
     
  15. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    No5shooter,

    When we encounter people with guns that are regular citizens or suspects they all tend to do the same thing and that is when I tell you, "Police drop the gun" your instinct is to turn to me to see who I am. The second problem is that you did not drop the gun because you don't know better and you are shot. Don't preach to me about knowing my target. I can guarantee that the scenario that I described would happen 99% of the time and the officer who shoots you is justified.

    Just because we would be justified does not mean the after math for that officer is over. That officer will always wonder what he could of done different and might eventually lose his life because of suicide (Which is the number one cop killer) or hesitate in another situation which someone else dies that should not have. This is not to mention the civil suits and the crap we would have to now listen to because we took your advice and gave everyone on school grounds guns.
     
  16. no5shooter

    no5shooter Member

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    cnjranch, I didn't say it was easy, and I truly do appreciate the situation you are describing. I also suspect you are right about the reactions of most people, good or bad, when you announce your presence. Hopefully, I would have the sense to just look first (I know I'd want to know if you really were the police) and not swing a gun in your direction. Hopefully.

    You describe a difficult situation, but I do not appreciate all the places where those in charge do not want me able to defend myself. That includes my employer's property, which particularly galls me, as well as schools, libraries, and numerous private businesses that court the public's business.

    Incidentally, I didn't advocate giving "everyone on school grounds guns." We were talking about adults with valid CCW permits, I thought.
     
  17. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    NoShoot,

    I understand what you are saying and all. There are places we go as LEO's that we can not carry firearms either so all LEO's know what you mean. We fortunatley are not as restricted as the average person with the restrictions they have.

    I wish we would actually know the truth as to how many citizens have been involved in one of these masacares and had a weapon on them and choose to run the other direction. I am sure it has happened and they have not helped anyone and we will never know.

    Tactics during the time of Columbine were adaquete prior to the incident. Unfortanetly the United States LEO agencies were not ready for what had happened. Great training has occurred since then and I am sure the response and tacticts to the second shooting at VT was increadable. All agencies have been trained on the active shooter and how to respond.

    Yes there are cowards in any organization but I have yet to experience more than one piece of crap not running to an incident when the situation arises. People have bashed the LEO's standing on perimeter but that was there job. The first arriving officers are the ones that were not caught on tape as they were already making attempts to locate and eliminate the suspect. There job is not to worry about wounded citizens or helping others escape.
     
  18. blowin smoke

    blowin smoke TS Member

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    cnj, I don't know where you are coming from, but I bet you didn't have a niece under lockdown this week at VT. I also don't know what "Joe's" you hang around with, but try harming anyone in my family and you will see what this Joe can and will do to put your lights out, not "run the other direction". Our boys are considered responsible and proficient enough at age 18 to use a gun in Iraq, but students should be considered helpless and deemed inadequate just because they are in engineering class?

    I am not in law enforcement, however many of my good friends are. It does not bring me any pride to say that I have higher scores on the CPC course than they do any day of the week. My point is that just because you are not in uniform does not mean you are not mentally and physically trained to deal with a threat.

    Where was all that "great training" while one idiot shot innocent humans who were not able to defend themselves for about a half-hour before until he finally turned the gun on himself. I am not knocking law enforcement, it is just that they cannot be everywhere when a threat develops. Sickos don't make appointments to commit mass murder. Read what the original poster said. When it was going down, it could have been stopped if CCW was allowed.

    Mike in VA
     
  19. zap

    zap TS Member

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    I to have a carry permit however long before i obtained one i still carried a hand gun daily. My thought process was if it ever came to it , i would rather be alive facing a hearing on my possession than be dead and lawfull
     
  20. snapthecat

    snapthecat TS Member

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    A recent survey showed that on average there is only one law enforcement officer on duty at any one time for every 80,000 citizens. HOW IN THE HELL DO THE LIBERALS THINK THIS IS PROTECTION? Every one who has enough sense to handle a handgun should have one. Obviously.
     
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