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A Target will be called LOST if...

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by VNVET, Feb 25, 2010.

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  1. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    Sometimes at our club we have scorers that are not totally "Up To Speed" on the "Failure to Fire" rules during an ATA shoot. The confusion usually involves determining when is a target called "lost" or a FTF. I would like to put a list of circumstances on the bulletin board at the club to help clear up the confusion. Can you guys help add to the list?

    A Target will be scored lost when a shooter mounts his gun and calls for a target and a legal target is promptly launched and:

    1. The safty is ON and the gun does not fire

    2. The shooter places a shell in the top barrel and the selector is set to fire the bottom barrel.

    3. The shooter flinches and does not fire

    4. The shell fires but is a "soft Load" and the wad clears the barrel and the target is not broken
     
  2. locdoc

    locdoc Member

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    Your list of circumstances could be compiled into a "handbook" for training your scorers.

    1,2 and 3 are FTF's and #4 is a LOST target

    Doug Whiton, P/W dealer/dist
     
  3. Dahaub

    Dahaub Active Member

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    Read the book everyone has the same opinion on this. Lost is called when the target was called, was legal and shot at with the wad clearing the barrel and not hit. Failure to fire is when target is called and not shot at. There are two of these per hundred targets and should be marked and kept in the records. The third one should be called lost.

    I have shot at many a trap shoot and have seen every kind of malfunction you can think of and still haven't seen them all and have never heard "Failure to fire" called. I just don't think most of the scorers know the rule on it.

    Most of what people referr to FTF targets are those targets that come finally after a shooter has called for several birds and none have cleared the house unbroken or come at all. Then when a bird does come and it's so much of a suprise that the shooter doesn't take it, that instance is overlooked and we just go on with our shooting. I have gone to calling "Clear" when a broken bird or two have broken our rythem and I would like to see a legal target after a sucession of broken birds have exited the house. Clear and pull have vastly different meanings and when I don't shoot at a "Clear" called target I should never get a FTF for that target. If ones says "Pull" one should expect to shoot at that target no matter if they just meant to clear the machine. That's my opinion. Dan
     
  4. over/under

    over/under Member

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    I thought 2 per sub event?
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Two per sub-event, Dan. If you come to the Midwest or the Grand, you will hear "Failure to Fire" called when appropriate; "Lost" too.

    Neil
     
  6. Dahaub

    Dahaub Active Member

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    Sorry fellas I thought it was two per hundred. Anyway I have been to the Grand and just haven't happened to have heard that called on a guy. I have wondered why but never challanged it. As most of you have watched this same instance when there are a succession of broken birds that don't clear the house and the shooter will lower his gun and lean over and call "Pull" just to clear the house. I think it would be a stretch for the scorer to give them a FTF for that bird but according to strict rules that bird was called for properly and should have been shot at. That's why I say "clear" when wanting to see a good bird after a bunch of broken targets have disrupted the rthym of the shooters. Dan
     
  7. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    There should be no "Failures to Fire", no matter the reason.

    Just my opinion.

    Curt
     
  8. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    That would sure take a lot of the guesswork out of it, wouldn't it Curt?
     
  9. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    Just to Clarify if you were to get a hard right of of post 5 and it is a legal target and you don't fire at it,it's a FTF and not a lost target and you can turn down 8 of them in a 100 targets,I haven't read the rule but my understanding was different?Jerry
     
  10. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    Shawn,

    C. LOST TARGET The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”:

    2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the contestant voluntarily does not fire;



    You stated earlier that a flinch is a FTF. This might seem to contradict that but it would seem to hinge on the word "voluntary". How does a scorer/referee judge that?
     
  11. Ted K.

    Ted K. Member

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    It would be very helpful if someone would post the actual text of the lost/FTF rules here. You know, "When all else fails, read the instructions."

    Ted K.
     
  12. brett44

    brett44 Member

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    I'm new to ATA shooting and occasionally flinch which normally results in a lost target. I've been considering a release trigger but if I can simply not fire. That would be a lot cheaper. In my short career I've never seen anyone declare a flinch and then call for another target.
     
  13. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Jerry makes a very valid point. Yes it should be scored as lost, but all the shooter needs to do is open and close gun like he had a gun problem and it would be a FTF at any shoot I have been at. No scorer is going to climb down and check his gun in the middle of a shoot. Or pull shell out and reload. In a Skeet or Sporting Clay shoot, all 4 at top of page are a lost target. Only a ammo or gun malfuntion will get you off the lost target, and you have to wait and have puller check your gun BEFORE you open chamber, he will pull your trigger to see it goes off and if not will check gun after you open it to hear if it recocks,ejects barrel your shell is in, and check safty is off then will make call. If its not the shell or guns fault it yours!!! LOST. I shoot all 3 and Trap is by far the least relaxed with their FTF's in my opinion. Its nice to know that most of us will not cheat and cheaters will get caught in the end. If it Flies it dies. Have Fun. Break-em all. Jeff
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    This is a little lengthy but these are all the reason for a lost target.

    C. LOST TARGET

    The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”:

    1. When the contestant fires and fails to break the target whether
    missed completely or when only dust falls from it. A “Dusted Target,”
    is a target from which there is a puff of dust, but no perceptible piece
    is seen; it is not a dead target; or

    2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the contestant voluntarily does not fire; or

    3. When an illegal target, a freak target, or a target of a markedly
    different color is fired at and missed. A contestant may refuse illegal,
    freak or off-colored targets, but if he/she fires at the target the result
    must be scored; or

    4. When a contestant voluntarily withdraws from, or is otherwise
    disqualified, and takes no further part in a sub-event after having fired at
    1 or more targets of a sub-event and does not fire at all the targets in the
    sub-event, the referee/scorer shall rule all targets not fired upon “LOST”
    targets and they shall be scored and reported accordingly. When the
    shooter is prevented by reasons beyond his/her control from completing
    a sub-event, the scores for that partial sub-event shall not be recorded
    or reported. Example: shooters have shot 61 targets of a 100-target
    event when a storm permanently stops shooting. The management
    should report the scores for the first 50 targets only; or

    5. When a score sheet is delivered to the office with one or more targets
    that are not properly scored either “DEAD” or “LOST,” they shall be
    scored as “LOST” targets by shoot management; or

    6. When a contestant deliberately fires at the same target twice in
    Doubles Events. This rule is not applicable to a gun “doubling” or
    “machine-gunning”, see Rule VII, D., 3.; or

    7. When a commonly called “soft load” occurs, and the shot is fired
    but no part of the over powder wad or shot remains in the barrel and
    the target is missed. A soft load where the over powder wad or shot
    remain in the barrel shall be deemed a “Failure to Fire” and the “Failure
    to Fire” Rules apply.

    If You disagree with these rule remember they were copied directly from the online rule book at the ATA website. The link is above in the web address line

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. oldgahchamp

    oldgahchamp Active Member

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    VNVET, Many years ago, all of the 4 items on your list would have resulted in "lost" targets. I think some of these rules were changed to appease a "select few". Larry Evans
     
  16. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    FTF and/or lost target on doubles is s tiny bit more complicated...
     
  17. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    Rick,

    I like your idea of having them laminated to the back of the scorers clipboard.

    Our club has volunteer members who do the scoring and some are skeet shooters. I don't know the rules for skeet shooting but they are apparently different than trap and this would help clear up the confusion.

    Jim
     
  18. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    Rick,

    Thanks, I was in VN in 68/69.

    In my experience, trap shooters will generally shoot the targets where they fly. Some clubs are worse than others and I can recall on several ocassions calling for a re-set at this one club. Even if the targets are a little low or high, I consider it a personal challenge to be able to adjust just as I do during windy conditions. This mindset may explain why my scores are up and down.

    Jim
     
  19. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Forget to put a shell in at all = FTF, Bad shell = FTF, Broken gun = FTF
     
  20. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarification and posting the actual rule on FTF when a legal target appears and is not fired at like most people I should have read the rulebook for clarification and not assumed.The actual rule seeems pretty straight forward and as far as a flinch qualifying as an FTF,it seems like someones interpetation of that being involuntary and qualiying as a FTF is much more of a gray area.Jerry
     
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