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A rule book change for doubles & Pat Traps?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by 225, Apr 11, 2007.

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  1. 225

    225 TS Member

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    I have read TS.com for years and like most people I just read and do not post. I have a problem being a ATA doubles squad leader. I have shot both PITA and ATA doubles and I am wondering why there can not be a ATA rule book change made that would allow the squad leader to see a pair of targets at the start of each post like the current PITA rules allow. Pat Traps with rubber bands allow a very real disadvantage to a ATA squad leader. It has been proven here on TS.com (before the server crash) that the rubber bands deliver less power after being idle while fully stretched for a few minutes. I remember reading where one poster reported that there was a loss of two MPH of target speed in the time required to change stations. I can understand where that might not have a significant effect on a singles target, but in doubles it does put the squad leader at a disadvantage with his soft second target.


    Neil Winston did some rubber band testing (pre server crash) and maybe he can shed some light on this phenomenon.


    Allowing the ATA squad leader to see a pair of targets at the start of each post would eliminate two problems:


    It would allow the squad leader to receive a pair of legal targets _for record_ not soft start up pairs from the rubber band Pat Trap.


    It would allow the squad leader to observe the track of his soft first target like the other squad members get by viewing the squad leaders _for record_ pair.


    Your thoughts/comments?



    2007 PITA DOUBLE TARGET RULES


    The squad leader may ask to see no more than 2 pairs
    of double targets before the squad commences firing for
    record on each sub-event or trap. The squad leader may
    also ask to see a pair of doubles targets before starting to
    shoot each subsequent post of a sub-event or trap. In
    cases where the trap could be determined to be throwing
    illegal targets, the squad may ask to see additional free
    pairs.


    After there has been a disruption of the squad during a
    sub-event or when two (2) illegal pairs of targets, or two (2)
    broken pairs of targets, or two (2) no target pairs are thrown
    in succession, or combination thereof, the contestant
    affected by the disruption may ask to see one (1) free pair of
    targets.
     
  2. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Kay Ohye doesn't seem to have much of a problem, either.
     
  3. 225

    225 TS Member

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    FlaLagarto,

    The disadvantage comes with the rubber band powered Pat Traps only. Spring powered Pat machines are consistent.
     
  4. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    I have seen the difference, but only during cold weather. I also don't think the time it takes to change posts causes this to happen in a noticeable way. At our club we notice it on the first target of the squad, but again only when it's cold.

    Scott
     
  5. Fast Oil

    Fast Oil TS Member

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    What a waste of targets and an added expence to the facility.

    So if the squad leader is getting this so called soft pair and you want him to get 1 pair for view, is this 1st pair then "not legal" so would you have to throw 2 pairs so that he gets the same "like the other squad members get by viewing the squad leaders _for record_ pair."

    I have to agree with others. Don't shoot lead off.

    I shoot lead off and I know where the targets are suppose to be.

    Scott
     
  6. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    225,

    You have a good idea. The squad leader should be able to see a pair on each station. This will equalize the playing field, since everyone else on the squad gets to see at least one pair on each station.

    But since this is a common sense solution to the problem it will not be permitted by the ATA. HMB
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    There are alternative solutions to the problem which do not require a rule change. When the squad leader arrives at a new post he can cough or sneeze, this noise will throw a pair of targets. Or he can accidently tap the microphone with the barrel of his gun which will also throw a pair. And if he is using an auto loader he can close the action while holding it close to the auto caller microphone. I am sure there are other solutions which also have the desired affect. HMB
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I hold a low gun and it is relatively simple to tell where the targets will leave the house without seeing a pair. Holding a high gun and spotting the first bird does add some problems to the squad leader. I am not now convinced that a rule change is necessary but I could be convinced with some sound arguments.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    Sounds like 16 wasted targets per each 2 sub event doubles event to me.
     
  10. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    HMB -

    You have an interesting perception of what constitutes common sense.

    If we take the suggestion - let the squad leader see a pair at each post - to practical application it's never going to be fair. It's not fair now, how is throwing one more pair per station going to make it more fair? The guy on 5 gets to see four pair before he shoots, and that's not fair to the guy on post 4 who only gets to see 3 pair, and it's even more unfair for the guy on post 3 who only sees two pair, and the poor guy on post 2 is really getting screwed he only gets to see 1 pair.

    I don't know what some of you are doing during a post change that it can take so long that it will allow the tension to come out of the bands on a Pat Trap.

    Scott
     
  11. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Lit -

    My favorite words (most favorite when my wife has to say them) :)

    I too like to lead-off and have never had an issue with soft targets or feel at a disadvantage by not being able to see a pair when I change.

    Scott
     
  12. gunner x

    gunner x TS Member

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    Mr. 225,evidently is a new poster. I think one should review his words and
    place credence on what he has noted. The Squad Leader is at a distinct
    disadavange each and every time there is a post change, number one and every time
    there is a lull or transfer when the number five shooter now circles the field
    to arrive at post one and re-position himself especially if he is in a wheelchair and or stops to pick up a partial box of shells which I see very
    often. The Rubber Band now takes a break and relaxes, and the squad leader,
    if he is SHARP must now be prepared for a deceptive pair of targets.

    And this will occur five times. Possibly the Pat Trap Wizzards have overlooked
    something here, and maybe 225, the Phantom 225, sees something we don't.
    He makes a point and has my attention.

    There is a soulution, and that is simply to rotate the squad leader each time
    there is a position change. Example, Number one shooter, after shooting his
    five pair, moves to post two. Now number three shooter leads off the sequence,
    and after five pair, number four shooter becomes the squadleader and on
    and on. Now the playing field is fair and level. Ah but wait, this makes to
    much sense, it will never fly.

    Gunnerx
     
  13. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Waste of targets. If you don't wanna' shoot lead-off-------I'll do it.

    John C. Saubak
     
  14. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    I'm not convinced of the problem of the pat trap bands relaxing in the time it takes to change posts. Since I have to go to the club tomorrow morning, I will do a little test with the radar gun. Will report results tomorrow afternoon.




    Jim
     
  15. larryjk

    larryjk Member

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    Jim101, I will be watching for the results of the radar gun test.
    hmb, Guys that pull the talking, barrel against the mic, etc., is why we teach the score keeper to shut off the system for the changing of stations. Too many big mouths and guys that think they are cute.
     
  16. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Since it's optional, then the rule could be changed if folks wanted that. As a squad leader, I wouldn't waste my time doing it though. I think this type of rule change is generally promulgated by folks who are afraid to shoot lead off under the present conditions. Personally, I like the challenge of it.

    For those who shoot PITA: Is this practice commonly followed? Or is it a sporadic, depends on who's leading off type of thing?
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    225, there's been no proof that Pat-traps throw slower targets if left cocked for a few minutes. In fact, I've never heard of it. And I've radared thousands of targets off Pat-traps.

    But I'll try it and post the results here.

    The 2 Jims did show that in relatively cold weather Pat Traps with rubber bands speeded up from cold by quite a bit, enough to make a difference.

    At the Minnesota State Shoot last year we kept close track and found that some went slower, most stayed about the same, and a couple went faster as the shooting day progressed.

    Neil
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gunnerx - The suggestion you made, and supported with the statement " makes to much sense, it will never fly " would eliminate any potential disadvantage to the lead off shooter but it would create so much confusion for the scorer. The score sheet would have to be filled in out of order. It is a suggestion that might solve one possible problem and create many other problems.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    I lead off most of the time and have not encountered the "perceived" problem. As stated, if you don't like the "lead-off" position, then there are 4 others just waiting for you!!

    Curt - Delaware
     
  20. Wilma Harris

    Wilma Harris TS Member

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    If and I say if, the first pair after a post change is soft, then isn't this what many are wanting in doubles, softer and narrower targets? Should make everyone want to shoot leadoff if your going to get 4 or 5 pair that are slower each 50.
     
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