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A new Minnesota State Team proposal (Winston)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Neil Winston, Jun 29, 2010.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    All comments are welcome.

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  2. sxs28ga

    sxs28ga TS Member

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    Someone with a vision - something that will help local clubs and shooters, and reward them - I like it, should be nation wide - J Mroczka
     
  3. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    And it fits the MTA mission statement!

    Bravo Neil!!

    Bob
     
  4. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Would Bob Munson have made the state team last year if this were the requirements??


    Jerry Hauser
     
  5. Primedust

    Primedust TS Member

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    Good Morning Neil!

    I like some of your thoughts. I like MN. targets although I am sure it will not be accepted by many of our elite shooters whom travel as many of them have only a few MN. targets which would virtually leave them off the state team forever unless they change there life styles. Some of our best shooters shoot between 70 and 90% of their targets out state.

    For the shooters whom work on the weekends, they will be eliminated from the team also. Like Cletus whom shoots Marathon targets with reckless abandon on certain days because it is the only day off in a month or two in the Summer. He is a power engineer for the city of Duluths Steam plant. (Yes, someone with a steamy job!)

    For Youth, the travel will be constrictive, but yes it is now too.

    We only have 33 shooters whom shot enough targets last year to be eligible for the team. Down from over 100 a few years ago. Will this really give them incentive to travel to obtain those points? If marathon targets don't count, and some of us donating our time to run many different shoots around the state giving up valuable weekends to run "special shoots, we would be hard pressed to qualify enough points.

    Will shooters simply say, "Well we won't get any credit shooting these 4 shoot venues today so why go?". Will they simply take up golf or fishing?

    Please Neil, I am not trying to be a stick in the mud, you know me well.
    Are you still promoting target minimums or is that out. With only 10 or 12 clubs shooting points, what of our daily fees? We must in all fairness allow clubs far and wide the ability to throw these targets. So then are we not back to the awful 75 mile rule? Is 20 or so shoots enough, one per weekend May through Sept.?

    Primedust
    Mark Stevens
     
  6. sawmill

    sawmill TS Member

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    Great ideas, Neil.

    I feel that there should also be points awarded for class champions high all around at all shoots.
     
  7. Sky Buster

    Sky Buster Sky Buster TS Supporters

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    See you at the meeting Neil! I like your proposal.
     
  8. handlepuller

    handlepuller Well-Known Member

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    A lot of the big dogs that are All Americans might not care that much about making the All State team.
     
  9. C E Demulling

    C E Demulling Member

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    Should the state team be the people that shoot the best in Minnesota? Or, the people in Minnesota that shoot the best?
     
  10. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Cheryl

    Both of your questions say "in Minnesota" and not "from Minnesota". ATA's job is to support and promote trapshooting nationally or internationally. The MTA's job is to support and promote trapshooting "in Minnesota", not "from Minnesota". Just like not getting All American points for shooting in South Africa.

    IMHO

    Bob
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    That's a good question, Cheryl, and I guess I'm willing to trust people to vote their consciences on that.

    There really is a difference, isn't there? They are different groups. And the way you have contrasted them is perfect:

    " the people that shoot the best in Minnesota? Or, the people in Minnesota that shoot the best."

    My question is, _why_ are they different groups? Put another way, why don't the people in Minnesota who shoot the best _also_ shoot the best in Minnesota? The answer is pretty clear - there's no reward for shooting here that they can't get by spending their time and money somewhere else. Change the rewards, you might change their behavior. I think - until they figured that we are serious - they still would shoot elsewhere. But it would be a matter of choice, wouldn't it?

    There is some feeling I've heard that this somehow "bars All-Americans from the team." That's not true at all. In the first place, there are two easy ones, pretty central, and not conflicted by All-American complications. That's the Metro Eagle-eye shoot and the Calf & Steer at Del-Tone. Add the State shoot. So there are three right there, and they can draw even with six good days by just going to three more clubs in the long, long period from 1 Sept to 31 August.

    If they decide to go somewhere else instead, it's not because they were "barred," it's because they made choices to go somewhere they would rather go, do something they would rather do. That's up to them and is in fact a choice I'll be making many times myself. "What's more important?" I'll ask myself.
    Happens all the time in life - why not in trapshooting?

    The proposed system is exactly the level playing field we have read about so much about recently. Everyone is treated the same. Who can complain about being treated the same as everyone else?

    Besides, the best shooters don't always show up on the current teams anyway. There are standards of shooting (quantity & location) which keep two great shots off; one all the time, one usually. I've never heard anyone say "Hey, we have to put "Chris" on the team. He's better than half these guys and everyone knows it." But "Chris" doesn't meet the requirements and they apply to everyone, as they should. So what's the big deal about this proposal? What's different?

    Neil
     
  12. C E Demulling

    C E Demulling Member

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    Thank you Neil. That is what I wanted you to explain. People will have to decide, even as they do now, if they want to shoot enough point shoots in Minnesota to make the Minnesota team. We see other good shooters not make their state teams all over the country. As you have pointed out, they are not there because they didn't meet the requirements.

    If the better shooters want to be on the team, they will put in the time, effort and money to meet the requirements.

    BTW, If they had a big enough ATA shoot in South Africa, you could get All-American points in South Africa!

    Back to making Jerry's favorite chocolate chip cookies. (I get "brownie points" for that!)
     
  13. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Could someone like Bob Munson who is a first team All American and the winner of the Grand American Handicap potentially be excluded from the Minnesota State Team if these rules had been adopted last year ???


    Jerry Hauser
     
  14. MNGopher

    MNGopher TS Member

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    Under this no Munsons would have made the State Team, but then "I think" Gens, Neumann, Zauhar, Gottberg, and many more would not have made it to.

    I believe the State Team needs to get worked over. I don't think we need 22 men making the team when only 33 shot enough targets.

    Good thoughts Neil

    Eric
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    But Jerry and Eric - is that really a valid question? It assumes, after all, that the mentioned persons would have shot just as they did. In fact, the answer is not "No" but rather "We don't know." If the rules had been different, it's fair to guess that some might have shot differently in order to make the State Team, just as many actually did.


    You recall that last year four clubs were required. All men's team members did meet that criterion, and I can only think of two "otherwise team eligible" shooters who did not.

    With the kind of shooter we both have in mind, all they would have to do is go to a couple more to almost certainly secure a spot. Remember, the 700 singles rule (now in question, I think) is for all practical purposes the same kind of requirement and few thought _that_ was unfair. It _was_ hard on people in the far corners of the state, but if we can spread the venues out all over the state, it should be, for a change, fair to all.

    Neil
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    And Jerry, I see that Arizona has even tougher target attainment requirements than Minnesota! And yet, clearly, a whole bunch of your really good shooters did make the teams. Doesn't this hint that many are willing to make that effort to get on a team by meeting the requirements?

    Neil
     
  17. glenn mcleod

    glenn mcleod Member

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    Neil, Would it help the marathon situation if each ATA member was limited to 200 birds of each event per day? 600 birds should be adequate for most I would think. This might help heal some of the pain between the two groups and still be a compromise they both can live with. Glenn
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Beats me, Glenn. You would have to talk to the parties involved.

    I think, however, it would be hard to explain to either a shooter or the club to which he is proffering his cash that they would have to respond "Sorry, Chris. I know you need the targets to avoid penalty at State and Lord knows this club needs the money and appreciates your business, but the MTA has decreed a cutoff at 200 of each. It's important, they decided, in order to make some others feel good."

    Neil
     
  19. MNGopher

    MNGopher TS Member

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    Opps, Sorry Neil, Talked to fast again.

    Thats right, we don't know how the team would have ended up. but I beleive I would of had more wins than Bob so I should be ahead of him..HAHA

    Eric
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, Eric, my plan is not retroactive.

    Neil
     
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