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A Modest Suggestion About Handicap !!!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by wolfram, Mar 19, 2009.

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  1. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Because there would be a lot of shooters shooting in the 50's and few egos can withstand that. Net result = few shooters in the game.
     
  2. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    The idea of earning yardage is that you progessively become a better shooter and only advance when you master the previous level. It isn't about fitting in with a group based on your ability or lack there of. Getting to the 27 is a significant milestone in this game, being competitive from that yardage is the razor edge of perfection that defines our objective. Most importantly though ....you gotta earn it.
     
  3. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    A handicap system allows participants of varying abilities to compete on a leveled playing field so that all competitors can compete against each other.


    A class system, such as in singles, is used to allow competitors of similar ability to compete within their class.
     
  4. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I was just explaining the different systems of competition. Here is my first post from my thread "Predicting the Southern Grand Champion" which you can find further down. I think you will see that I hardly believe we have a level field:

    "My prediction as to who will win the Southern Grand Handicap Championship is that it will be a well-established 27 yard shooter with a handicap average in excess of 94 or it will be a young, hot shooter standing on no more than the 21 yard line. How can I make this prediction? Because this is the profile of all major shoot handicap winners.

    The reason these two types of shooters win major shoot handicap championships is because they are both under handicapped. The established 27 yard shooters have mastered the game at 27 yards and walk to the line expecting to shoot 96+ in the same manner that an AA singles shooter has that same expectation. The short yardage shooter is under handicapped because they find little difference in shooting from the 20-21 compared to the 16 but they have not yet earned yardage in to the dead zone of 22-26 yards.

    Why is the 22-26 yards a dead zone of handicap champion winners? Because a good shooter moving through these yardages never stays at a particular yardage long enough to truly master it and reach the proficiency required to shoot the 98-99 score that usually wins a major shoot handicap.

    A partial answer is to start new shooters at the 22 and let the less proficient work their way forward while the more proficient work their way back and to create a Master Class of 27 yard shooters that average 94+ and can shoot the 98-99 winning scores on a regular basis."

    In short, we have shooters that are under handicapped.
     
  5. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    The basic answer is this: Handicap is the one and only game in American Trap that has every shooter on the field competing against every other shooter in the same event. It simply is not another game where shooters are competing against only those that have similar averages. This makes Handicap the premier event of most shoots, that with the most money, the best trophy, and the most prestige. Even having yardage groups does nothing but water down the values and prestige of the Handicap package......breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  6. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Personally, I think that idea has a lot of merit, but it'll never happen even or probably because it should ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    wolfram

    "The idea of earning yardage is that you progessively become a better shooter and only advance when you master the previous level. It isn't about fitting in with a group based on your ability or lack there of."

    Wolf the problem with this statement is that a one time score of 96 or above doesn't in anyway indicate mastery of a yardage. The top names in the game are exhibiting mastery of the handicap game with their high averages and even higher scores at the larger shoots.

    In my opinion from what is being said I believe that your prospective on the Handicap system as it stands is the one that needs a little more thought.

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    DB, your humor is duly appreciated but no one, especially me, suggests anything of the sort. Plus, my opinion is not based on my astronomical trap skills. Even before beginning my slippery slope to trap observer, I almost never played money or had much suspicion that I'd win many handicaps. But, the game is just as I said, the only game where each contestant pits his skills, ability, ummm luck against the whole field of contestants and it should remain that way.....:Bob Dodd
     
  9. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Well, sure, it is they who benefit most from my opinion and why not encourage the big guns to come to your club for decent handicap laurels. I rarely play(ed) money for economical reasons and know I saved much more than I'd have won over the years. I still preferred to see how I did against the whole field. If anyone objects to the Handicap game as originally designed, there are still 2/3 of the trap world they can participate in and compete in the much smaller field of average based games and reduce the walking back and forth at long yardage too<;-)......Bob Dodd
     
  10. LDAdd

    LDAdd TS Member

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    Hey guys,

    All this talk about the domination of the 27 yard shooters requires some qualifications....(see my comments under the "Yardage Analysis" thread).
    It can be summmed up by the old truism "10% of the fishermen get 90% of the fish".

    You're talking about the cream of the crop...the best of the best, these are the people that show up at all the Grand Shoots and other major tournaments. At the typical weekend trapshoot with any number of typical local 27 yard shooters it is anyones game. Most of these 27 guys could take one or more reductions at any time, but don't want to lose the yardage. I don't think the game is broken. Except for the obvious exceptions (very low percentage of all the shooters) the handicap system is based upon the old "Peters Principal", where we are all promoted to our "level of incompetence". Just like at the office, right?? At just about all the other weekend tournaments the handicap system as it exists pretty much levels the playing field. I see no reason to degrade the system for the sake of the largest tournaments with the best shooters in the game.

    Hey Bob, in that other thread I bring up the subject of the yardage group system, and you've heard it all before from me.

    Cheers

    Larry

    Larry
     
  11. Justin L.

    Justin L. Member

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    Hey guys, I just wanted to throw this out there...the best shooters are still going to win regardless of how you change classification or where anyone else stands. They're the best for a reason. Personally, I'm a 27-yarder that isn't that good (haven't shot much the last few years so I'm less than not very good right now), but when I go to the bigger shoots, I still enjoy shooting against the best of the best. It drives me to be better, I believe, and when I get some more time I'll shoot more and try to be as good as those guys. Will it ever happen? Nah. But it gives you something to work for in this game, none of the guys that are at the top were born with the talent they have now. They all worked at it, some got it quicker than others, but they still had to put the time and dedication in to get to their level. Don't worry if you come away with less money and no trophies, if you shot a good score for you, have a beer and celebrate. If you didn't, try harder the next time and get some more practice in. Just tonight at the club I was reliving a shootoff I got in with an All-American, and regardless of whether I won or lost, shooting off with one of the best in our game was a thrill. In short, don't worry about the other guys, shoot against yourself and have some fun. Life's too short.
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Justin L- You have a wonderful attitude and a sound grip on life.

    Consider this- If we had a perfect handicap system, then every shooter would shoot the same score in a handicap event.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    LDAdd

    "It can be summmed up by the old truism "10% of the fishermen get 90% of the fish"."

    First let me say I have no problem with with the 10% theory I just have a question. Why do 10% of the fishermen get 90% of the fish? there has to be a reason just saying it doesn't make it so, something else does.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Bob...

    The answer: Because the 10% are better. They have a natural talent for the sport, they practice and compete more to keep their edge. It's just like any other sport. Everybody can play high school sports, then only a very few are picked to play college sports (the average people are culled), then only a very, very few are picked to play professional (thus more culling). It's sorta the same way in the shooting sports, except the average and awful are allowed to compete against the "Very, Very Few".

    Most of the complainers are those with no talent and merely wish to drag everyone else down to their level!

    Curt
     
  15. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    I am lucky to shoot with some very good shooters.

    We shoot for Cokes on practice days and it is a blast. I win a fair share of Cokes on the 16 yd line. It feels good to beat out a good shooter.

    I am a 23 yarder and they are 27 yarders. They squish me like a grape at handicap. This is the "reality check". The good shooters perform well at longer yardage and the "bums" like me have our butts handed to us most of the time.

    Why change the system? I want to shoot at a higher level. A new system is not going to make me a better shot. Once I put 150,000 shells downrange (like my mentors have) maybe, just maybe, I will be a better shooter.

    None of these guys have ever griped about the HC system. If they lose, they don't blame the system. I am not sure change is needed or even wanted.

    I saw some of the same thinking in Cowboy Shooting. All directed at trying to somehow impact the top guns. Load restrictions, equipment restrictions, target size/distance etc etc. It DOES NOT matter. The upper 10% will not change.

    If we want to win, we need to learn to shoot good scores under pressure.

    Don Verna
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Curt with all due respect the reason that 10% of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish is they spend more time fishing therefore they catch more fish.

    The 10% of the top shooters that win 90% of the trophies and added money spend more time shooting.

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    The old saying that "practice makes perfect" is mostly true in all sports. How we ever came to initiate a 27 yard line in 1955 is a mystery? Guns/loads/targets and all related equipment we use today have drastically improved over what was available in 1955? Instead of following the path toward a tougher target as our past delegates did, we went the other direction, with less angle and distance the targets are thrown! Is it possible we wouldn't be having this discussion if we'd followed suit of our past delegates decisions, instead of making the game easier? Easier for those talented shooters practicing the art of perfection in our handicap game?

    Hap
     
  18. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I used to shoot a lot of practice, it seemed like the more I practied the Luckier I got ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  19. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    Handicap were you all shoot at the same yardage and divide shooter by class is no longer handicap. It's long range singles. The hell with that!

    The whole point of handicap is you vs everyone else with distance being the equalizer. But when there are more than a few shooters that can maintain a better average at the 27 than most shooters can at the 16, then the 27 isn't really a handicap for them any more. The first logical step for shaking up the handicap game would be a mandatory 3 hole, 52 yard target. The ATA won't even consider that, so talking about reduced loads, more yardage, yada, yada, yada, is just a waste of time.

    ~Michael
     
  20. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Bob...

    Re-read my second sentence...that's exactly what I said...sheesh!!

    Curt
     
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