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A modest proposal to solve 'concrete/3hole' angst

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by goatskin, Nov 17, 2011.

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  1. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    There's a fairly straightforward solution to a LOT of these 'concrete/3hole angst' issues - IF one regards them as 'issues' in need of a solution, that is.

    Adopt the international standard bullet: 24gms and who cares how fast it goes.

    For NW (and 'tis a proper concern he raised), it's certainly testable.

    It handicaps the longer-yardage shooters more than it does the 20s & 22s, however the folks who are SUPPOSED to win (good pointers with good eyes and trigger control), will still win.

    Too, it's cheaper and 'greener' and softer on the shoulder.

    The principal argument against, I think, was articulted by P.Kiner in a private convo ... how many shooter's garages have 50 flats of loaded 1-1/8oz bullets?

    Dysinger put it into perspective: outshot? eh, I'll be back tomorrow ... outSHELLED ... ugh. no way.

    Bob
     
  2. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    Lol!

    50 flats? I have at least that many already loaded!
     
  3. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Will 24 gram shells consistantly break 100 straight from the 27 if the pointer is perfect?
     
  4. jhunts

    jhunts Active Member

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    Setterman,

    So you are saying that if you point correctly with your current 1 1/8oz load you are assured a break. Is that the rule the 1 1/8oz load is based on?

    John
     
  5. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    It's a simple question that has nothing to do with "rules". How many 100's were broke from the 27 this year? A lot. How many have been broken with 28gm loads?

    Our resident TS.Com patterning expert, Neil has posted that there are limits to "consistant" patterns necessary to have consistant target breakage. I'm simply asking if a 28 gm load will compete with 1 1/8oz for the 27 yard shooter.

    To handicap some one is to make it more difficult, not impossible.
     
  6. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    I am reading this correct, are you suggesting only 7/8 oz loads from the 27? Jake
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    John, no. 1-1/8 oz of shot was mandated down from 1-1/4 oz.

    A friend in the east has approx. 900 flats squirreled away in his storage!

    If written similarly, new yardage from the 27 may only be earned at the major shoots for a win, place or show. Not every club across the country would need to spend a dime unless they held a major ATA shoot or a state shoot. How many traps would be needed to handle the best of the best if the rule was written properly? That could allow those shooters be eligible for their reductions just as everyone else does today. No more cheap punches to attain extra yardage from the 27, an elite goal for the gold winners. Possibly 4 traps at Sparta? 2 or so for state shoots and mini-grands may work well for years?

    Hap
     
  8. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    <i>Will 24 gram shells consistantly break 100 straight from the 27 if the pointer is perfect?</i>

    There are some 'dependings,' and 'yes, buts' and ... 'hmmm, hawwww what about wind?' ... but yes.

    The bunker shooters normally pop their 1st shot at 35-37 yards - which is pretty close to where the better 27yarders pop theirs, and considering the speed & angle difference in the birds, there is plenty more pattern than hole.

    I 'spect - at least at first - 100s won't be common at any yardage, and most of them would be from the 23-24yarders who are working hard at getting a handle on the game.

    That said, from every yardage, both hcp and singles scores will shrink, but they'll come up as people get more used to the load.

    It wouldn't surprise me much if doubles scores don't come up a bit on average.

    Bob
     
  9. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Bob a very sensible proposal.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  10. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    "<i>How many 100's were broke from the 27 this year? A lot.</i>"

    I'm not sure I'd consider 35 100 straights out of 200,234 100-target handicap scores to be a lot.
     
  11. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Hap, when was the drop to 1 1/8 oz?
     
  12. Sportshot

    Sportshot Active Member

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    900 flats loaded in the garage. Is that like 14 pallets of shells or sumthin? what a loser... (smile)... So sure... , we can all wait 20 years for him to shoot up his ammo before anybody changes any rules. Sounds reasonable to me.(not)

    They did the same thing with gas right? All those muscle car beauties that ran on regular leaded gas,... we waited until the last one hit the junkyard before we got unleaded gas with ethanol mandated to us.

    BTW Goatskin, your suggestion is brilliant!... for all the reasons you mentioned.

    That rule exists and works very well in FITASC and Olympic trap and skeet.
     
  13. dead on 4

    dead on 4 Well-Known Member

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    Hap, Am I smoking my socks again? I thought international bunker went from
    1-1/4 to 1-1/8 to 28grm to 24gm? Or is a 24 grm an international skeet or is it 28grm? I know some bunker club shoots allow 1oz in lieu of more expensive international loads. A 24grm load would be a great leveler and by the way, they will reach out ther better than most people think.

    Surfer
     
  14. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    The best shooters will still bet you. 30 yards of concrete, 1 ounce of shot, lower velocities, it doesn't matter. They are a better shot. Accept it.

    Wayne
     
  15. missed some

    missed some TS Member

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    And nothing is going to happen because you post it on ts.com, most of the users aren't registered shooters, and most don't attend their state meeting, and some don't even know who their delegate even is.Airing it out here won't do anything, talk to your zone directors, and your delegates mark crist
     
  16. missed some

    missed some TS Member

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    and for those who think the lesser shells will bring up your score, then why aren't you using them and winning every event out there?? I fall in that camp that uses ounce and a eighth because they won't let me use ounce and a half!!
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Surfer, ATA shooters once used a 1-1/4 oz load also. I've forgotten the year it was reduced to 1-1/8 max load. The International loads weight change took place much much later. Possibly someone else recalls the date that change took place?

    Phil Kiner didn't make much headway when he suggested a reduced velocity load to the board a while back either? I seriously doubt a bunker load would create much of a must have attitude with the board either.

    According to N.W. and his tests, even the 1-1/8 oz load is nearing the limits of shooting perfect scores from the 27? Getting the powers that be to change the loads would be tougher than adding real estate or changing the angles back!

    Hap
     
  18. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    Hap, I was giving a simple solution to all the misc. grinching about how to make the game more challenging, bring back some opportunity & money into shooting, kill the perfection is the price of participation image, and offer something that IS doable ... IF the way things are now is such a problem.

    Ehe EC/BOD ain't:

    - going to make a 30yd line. period, and everybody knows that.

    - go back to 3hole targets, and everybody knows that. 3hole targets are perfectly legal to shoot now, and no club throws them for any ATA match. VandaliaJoe, IndyDoofus and LongShort are the only ones who want to mandate 3hole, anyhow, everybody else - including you - just shoots what's thrown.

    - do anything with shell velocity.

    Going to a 24gm load and forgetting speed would shrink the number of 100s, and would make long-yardage 100s something pretty special, and might encourage people to take reductions and play more options ... who knows?

    Look at the suggestion as the Ockham's Razor of solving unsolvable problems ... IF such problems even exist.

    I see a lot of advantages to it ... just because.

    Bob
     
  19. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    So.........when the ATA went from 1 1/4oz to 1 1/8oz what did they do about the guys who had 50 flats of 1 1/4oz loaded stored in the basement?
     
  20. Sportshot

    Sportshot Active Member

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    What did they do Cowboy??? They elected Obama and the Government bailed all the shotgun shell hoarders out...

    or maybe they said tough luck, the success of the game is more important than your little pile of bullets, (funny how die hard conservatives are rugged individualists until their own private universe is threatened with, gasp, a minor financial inconvenience) Use them for practice or sell them to hunters even if you lose a buck a box.

    Of course the heavy shell shooters probably continued to shoot them in ATA.
     
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