1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

A.I.M. creates new rules breaking up champion team

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by StonewallRacing, Aug 30, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,206
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Your not going to like my answer....

    The rules are put in place to prevent "Cherry-Picking" a team of all-stars that goes in and blows away all the other teams.

    We've had similar rules in SCTP the last couple years due to abuse of the "intent" of the rules. There were more or less "all-state" teams coming in and blowing everyone away.

    It totally destroys the morale of the other teams and hurts attendance at future shoots because no one wants to travel all that way and spend money to not have a chance to compete.

    SW
     
  2. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,206
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    That's why its a TEAM competition. Not the five best individuals ganging up on the "little guys."

    My son shoots on a high school team that has only 1100 students to draw shooters from. We have virtually no chance against other teams made up of 4H clubs, the "Tri-county XYZ Shooters" or others that are pulling in shooters from a broad area. It's not because those kids are not trying, they just don't have as much talent to draw from to get the depth in the team.

    I think it's pretty simple and I am surprised that the rule was not already in place in AIM, although I have not been that impressed by AIM for the last two years anyway.

    The rules are in place for 2011 so your school shoots against another school. So it looks like you better find shooters from your school that are willing to work as hard as you do.

    967 is a nice score by the way. Congratulations.

    SW
     
  3. clayman51

    clayman51 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    437
    I copied and pasted this from the ATA web page

    Dennis Menning
    Kentucky State AIM Director

    2010 AIM Program Category Distinction Change

    With the growth of the AIM Program in the past year is has become evident that further regulations regarding shooters in these categories need to be made.

    A shooter must declare before the start of the shooting season whether he/she will be a part of the Collegiate or Graduate Category.

    Collegiate/Graduate Squads
    A squad deemed as a collegiate squad needs to be compromised of five shooters all of whom attend the same University. It is no longer acceptable for shooters who are comprised of the same squad on the collegiate level to be from varying Universities. Squads deemed as collegiate squads are not able to compete for a Gun Club but must represent a University.

    The ATA will no longer allow a squad to be comprised of shooters in the Graduate Category and shooters in the Collegiate Category. A squad must declare as a Graduate Squad or a Collegiate Squad. A collegiate shooter may shoot on a Graduate Squad but the squad will be deemed as a Graduate Squad; this would require the shooter to declare him or herself as a “Graduate” at the start of the shooting season if they wish to compete on a graduate squad.

    Our mission in creating a collegiate category is to provide genuine competition between University teams. This will encourage individuals to seek out other shooters that attend his or her University.

    Collegiate/Graduate Individuals
    If a shooter had decided to declare him/herself as a Collegiate Shooter at the start of the shooting season he/she must shoot on behalf of the University in which he/she attends. He/She is not able to represent a Gun Club.

    If a shooter wishes to represent a Club he/she must declare him/herself as a Graduate.

    The Collegiate Category is similar to that of a Special Category Declaration.

    These changes will be enforced starting September 1, 2010.
     
  4. missed some

    missed some TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    708
    so it sounds like other collegiate sports, to play football for k-state, you gotta go to college there, how is that unfair??
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    A collegiate basketball team is composed of students attending the same College or University. A collegiate team represents a College/University. The word collegiate refers to a College or a Church.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. missed some

    missed some TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    708
    so are you a collegiate team, or just college age guys shooting together, what school do you represent?
     
  7. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    6,625
    Location:
    Michigan
    Sorry but no sympathies. Rule is a good one and should have been in place. Looks like you have to make some of life's choices.

    Don
     
  8. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,413
    Location:
    Chicago area
    In the fall of 2009, Bethel College had just over 2,100 students enrolled. When you formed your "college" team, how many shooters did you have to pick from? It's no wonder they got their hind ends handed to them, you got to put together a team with access to every trapshooter attending college in the entire country, Bethel had to make their team up of the trapshooters enrolled at Bethel. Hardly a fair fight, but I'm sure you must be proud that you were able to hand them their hind ends. Does Bethel even have a college shooting program that is recognized by the university? I did a search of their website and didn't find any reference to one.

    Next you'll want to make up a state team but not require everyone to be from the same state.

    Scott
     
  9. Mr. Charles

    Mr. Charles Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    201
    It's called 'cherry picking' any way you look at it.

    Why would anyone want to participate against a team that was hand picked?


    Sorry KS6,no sympathy here...

    You could have a heck of a BB Team if you picked from different Universities.


    That may be the reason there was little participation.

    About working hard: I Coach SEIT Trap (High School Age) We only had a total of 15 shooters to make a team. We worked hard and won 2nd. in State and 26 in the Nationals.

    However, we won 2nd. 2 years in a row. We had the ATA Rookie of The Year two years in a row. We had Three boys on the Illinois Junior All State Team and one who shot 2nd. highest Score in the Nationals with the longest Run on a 199/200.

    We can't get by the teams who have many to choose from. Now, if we could "cherry Pick' say 1 or 2 shooters, well...

    We work hard and we are very proud of our achievements.

    My kids would not want to shoot on a cherry picked team. We may not win top spot, but we work hard and we are very proud of what we win.

    Gary Nelson

    Head Coach

    Southeastern Ill Trap.

    A collegiate Team is just what the name implies. College, not Private Trap Clubs.

    I also find it a little arrogant to state: We handed their hind ends to them. RE: Bethel College.

    On a level playing field, you might get your hind end handed to you.

    If one of my shooters makes a comment like that he would be suspended for a period of time.
     
  10. Fast Oil

    Fast Oil TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    918
    So what is stopping you from getting 4 more people from your collage to get involved and becoming a team?
     
  11. tachyon

    tachyon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    671
    The collegiate AIM program is just getting started. The ACUI has a mature collegiate shooting program and championship. Last year teams from about 33 Universities competed in Trap, Skeet, 5-Stand and Sporting Clays. As the AIM program grows I expect some of these teams to show up and shoot the AIM Collegiate program.

    Lindenwood University won the American Trap Team Championship with University of Nebraska Omaha in second. Ben Sieker from UNO was the men's champion and Megan Orie from Lindenwood won the women's.

    I think the change in rules is a good one. If you are all from the same university you shoot in the university division. If not, you shoot in the graduate division. You can still have your team.

    I think this should also be considered in the high school AIM program. Perhaps a category for teams where everyone is from the same high school. I think SCTP does this already.
     
  12. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,461
    Kyle,


    At least your squad can say that you effected a positive impact on the AIM program. The new rule is a good one and in the spirit of the intent.


    Your group of select shooters didn't break any rules, so there's no dishonor. Get over it, without any more sour grapes and do something good and positive going forward.



    Usually the harder the obstacles overcome, the greater the honor gleaned.






    Guy Babin


    SCTP Volunteer
     
  13. clayman51

    clayman51 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    437
    Kyle,

    I spoke to the ATA office the other day on this and I can tell you it had nothing to do with or because of how you guys shot.. The pure intent of the rule is to get more college participation in the AIM program since many colleges have trapshooting within their system for team participation.

    Congrats on your fine score!!
    I hope you and the rest of the guys will reconsider your position for the upcoming year.

    Dennis Menning
    Kentucky State AIM Director
     
  14. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,390
    It's a good rule change. As posted already, you did nothing wrong, but it was cherry-picking.

    You aren't out anything - get some shooters from your school and make up a team. problem is the team probably would not be as strong. Otherwise, keep the same guys and go in the graduate division and compete there on a more even footing.

    You won the championship. You can still make up a collegiate team if that is what you want, or you can still compete with the same team in the graduate division. You aren't getting screwed.
     
  15. TNCoach

    TNCoach Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    579
    Kyle,

    Let me first congratulate and then express my sympathy, but what college do you attend and have you thought about forming a team at your school?

    Step 1: I would recruit your coach from Franklin County Sportsmen Club.

    Step 2: I would then go to school officials with your proposal to form a team under your coach. It should be easy so long as you don't ask the school for money.

    Step 3: Find a school employee that's willing to mentor the team "long term" on campus.

    Step 4: Register it with the ATA/AIM and recruit, recruit, recruit...there are plenty of youth able to run a 100 that haven't been approached by a school, but would like to continue shooting at the next level.

    My 2 Cents,
    TNCoach
     
  16. 87AA

    87AA TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Messages:
    197
    Simple solution, break it into divisions:

    Collage Open Division...made up of team members from any college shooting team.

    College Class Division...made up of team members attending the same college.
     
  17. roger8918

    roger8918 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    697
    Congratulation Kentuckyshooter06, 967 in an outstanding score anyway you look at it. 926 won the Graduate division so you may do well in that category if you choose to stay with your current team next year.

    TNCoach, very will stated
     
  18. trapgeek

    trapgeek Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    315
    All you guys need to do is register with the GUN CLUB as a "Graduate" team and still compete as you have been, just in the "other" category as Graduate, not Collegiate. Done. Be happy. You won! You HAVE a good team, so compete where your team fits - Graduate.

    Trapgeek

    (A Youth Trap Coach, too)

    Leslie York
     
  19. tad houston

    tad houston TS Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2006
    Messages:
    477
    I wish I could have seen the original post but I think I have a good idea of what it contained.

    I just received my notice from the ATA in the mail today and thought it was a good move and I believe it was brought about for the reasons provided, to promote more college teams. I commend the AIM program for making the effort to better the program.

    To that end I also agree with Tachyon "I think this should also be considered in the high school AIM program. Perhaps a category for teams where everyone is from the same high school. I think SCTP does this already." (and thanks for mentioning Megan Orle one of our alums, we are VERY proud of her!) Yes, the SCTP has a separate category for teams composed of kids all from the same school.

    We are one of those teams and I can tell you that I believe getting enough competitive shooters out of a single school takes a bit more work but I think the kids benefit from that. We put a great deal of effort in helping ALL the kids learn and improve as we just don't know which ones will suddenly "get it" and move up the roster.

    This same solution could be applied to the situation at hand. As 87AA also has the same idea, "Simple solution, break it into divisions:
    Collage Open Division...made up of team members from any college shooting team.
    College Class Division...made up of team members attending the same college."

    Something to consider as we strive to improve the program.
     
  20. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    6,625
    Location:
    Michigan
    I see that our young poster has shown his immaturity and cut and run. He doesn't get the support he thought he was going to get so he deletes everything.

    Don
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.