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9 feet high @ 10 yards out -- Clarification

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by DTrykow, Apr 2, 2010.

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  1. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    Looking for some clarification with the target 9 feet high @ 10 yards out in the flights and angles section of the ATA rules. At 10 yards out field starts to rise, Actually, No level ground anywhere out there which poses another problem for setting the distance the bird travels(figured that out by setting the speed at 42MPH). So I need to set the target height. Book says Target height may also be set based on the height of the target at ten yards as measured above the level of the trap arm in the house rather than the height measured at post 3. Specifically where in there? On the arm pivot or where the bird sits in the cocked position? Having trouble interpeting that sentence. Thank you, Dave T.
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Dave, the "trap arm" text is in there to account for the (rare) cases in which the trap is a lot higher or lower in the house than usual. It just allows a club to set a bird which isn't "odd" because the trap location is unconventional.

    It is not more specific because it doesn't need to be.

    In your club's case I wouldn't try to use it. A little thought should get you close enough vis-a-vis the rising ground in front of the trap. If it rises about a foot, then set the bird about a foot lower relative to the field in front of the trap. But that may make _it_ look odd. Set it so it looks right. And then go on to set them all like that to keep things fair all down the trapline.

    Your worry about arm or pivot or whatever tell me you are cutting this way too fine, seeking unrealistic precision. Get it close; the first squad, the first breeze, they going to undo all your to-the-inch work anyway.

    Neil
     
  3. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    It is measured from the height of post three, you will need a transit or similar device to transfer this height to the top of your height setting stake.
     
  4. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    I'll go with what Neil said. Been there and done that with all the precision stuff, It will just drive you nuts.





    Jim
     
  5. 700X-user

    700X-user Member

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    Dave,

    Setting the height should not be a problem if you know someone with a transit.

    You can easily make a T-bar out of conduit or even schedule 40 plastic pipe.

    We had to make 2 different length T-bar's for setting height because of the difference in one field to another. We actually buried a 8" cinder block with the side facing up at 10 yards. Then we shot the height of pad 3 and shot the height of the cinder block and it's easy to figure the difference. Make sure you identify the trap that the T-bar belongs too.

    Ed
     
  6. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Ideally the shooting pads, the throwing arm and the whatever you measure 9' from 10 yds out in front of point "B" should all be at the same level. That said I'll agree with Neil. Anybody that's seen a few zillion targets fly can prob'ly "eyeball" 'em in better than somebody with a 9' pole that don't understand how to use it.

    John C. Saubak
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    We drove steel bar stock, 1 & 1/2 inch, in the ground and had them all set at the same level even though the ground in those areas was inconsistent.

    Then our T bar had a roll pin driven through its pipe so it slipped over those stakes we had driven in the ground and the height was the same everywhere.

    This does require all trap houses to be at the same level, as are the machines.

    HM
     
  8. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Halfmile, I like your idea, much better than the pipes we've done. I've also found that in still air 9'3" and 42 to 43 seems to please everyone. The key is to have all fields the same. Shoot well, Bob
     
  9. Harv Shell

    Harv Shell TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Dave, make life easy. Get ahold of a digital level, put it on the target plate and set it at 22 to 22.9 degrees. Mark that spot for singles,
    <br> hang a chain or mark the notch so you won't need the level again. Do the same for doubles, using 23.5 to 24 degrees elevation.<br>
    <br> Now you have a reference to start, headwind you might have to drop them, tailwind you might have to raise them. The reference<br>
    <br> marks give you the ability to set all fields the same. In the end it comes down to what Neil said, you have to LOOK at them. This<br>
    <br>info came from an hour long conversation with Charlie Morrison Sr. on target setting when i took over the ATA shoots at our club.<br>
    <br>Worked great for the 2+ years I did it, never used a T-bar once in that time. Heard comments that we set some of the best targets in<br>
    <br>the state. Good luck, Harv Shell.
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    As the rule is written, 8 to 10 foot high 30 feet out shouldn't be rocket science to set?

    Wind currents can play havoc with any setting chosen, the 9 foot recommendation is just that, a recommendation and not cast in stone. Due to various wind current conditions at the AZ state shoot, targets would be anywhere from 6 feet high to 60 feet high off the same trap depending on the path it was launched into the wind!! Move a few traps either way and your dealing with a different set of wind currents! Rather than "perfectly set" targets playing a major role, luck of the draw on the targets thrown at the call played an important part in breaking a good score. All the targets thrown were set to the clubs best ability to do so in such conditions as they tried their best to satisfy the shooters. I saw a lot of perfect shots, hardly any perfectly set targets since I don't know what those are?

    Hap
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I would do things differently than many of the above posters. I would get some sort of leveling device (transit is good, others will work fine) and measure the height 26 yards from the 16 yard line. The position of traps in the house vary considerably and I consider the trap machine a poor point to measure from. I also have a problem measuring height with a digital level on the machine target plate. This method will only work well if all of the machines are set in the house the same and the target sitting on the plate is level with the 16 yard line.

    I do agree with others who indicated that the final stage of setting targets is to have a knowledgeable person look at the targets.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. Bob M

    Bob M Member

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    A 5 gallon bucket and 30ish feet of clear tubing with one one end in the bucket and the oth strapped to a 2x2 make a water level that needs no batteries or calibration for setting heights.

    I do have a question. What do you do when you do set the targets to the inch and people STILL aren't happy. Do you make the shooters happy by setting them too low or follow the rules???
     
  13. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    I have to add here, the pat traps we are currently using have a paint mark on the side of the adjuster that is about 3/4 inches wide, so that we are at a good starting point when putting the trap back in the house after repairs.

    This paint mark equates to calm air setting for a regular target.

    HM
     
  14. Harv Shell

    Harv Shell TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Pat, I think you are wrong on this one. Doesn't matter if the machine is level or not, the angle of the plate is all that matters . Harv.
     
  15. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Pat wrote; "I also have a problem measuring height with a digital level on the machine target plate. This method will only work well if all of the machines are set in the house the same and the target sitting on the plate is level with the 16 yard line."


    I agree with Harv, Pat. Providing the traps are in good repair, multiple traps all set at the same speed and angle should throw the same angle of target presentation. I like 21.5 degrees myself, which is 9'3" roughly, if my memory serves me correctly.

    As a matter of fact, setting multiple traps at the same angle is the only way you can present the same angle of target presentation. Especially with clubs that have varying trap installations.

    If a club with 4 traps sets targets with a T-Bar set at 26 yards out from the 16 yard line, but has one trap installation higher than recommended, one lower, one more forward, and one more rearward, there will be 4 different angles of target presentation. There is no way around that.

    The experienced shooter knows what a good target flight path should look like. Setting targets with a T-Bar at a club with varying trap installations is a recipe for complaints and poor scores, IMHO.
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Paladin- If one trap is set 12 inches lower than another trap, you cannot use the same angle on the plate to get 10 feet high at 10 yards. The angle must be greater. If one trap is set 12 further back than another trap you need to use less angle to set the trap further back. If you diagram a right triangle on paper, this becomes clear.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    This is from one of Bob Schultz' excellent previous posts on the subject.


    "IF your Pat Trap is located in the house properly. Meaning that when the target on the arm is at rest, with the machine cocked, it is at the same level as the top of the pad on post three...then a target launched at 21.2 to 21.5 degrees will be very close to 9.5 feet high at the 10 yard distance. Each full degree on the angle finder represents 6.2 inches of elevation change and each tenth of a degree ( measured with the Digital Angle finder) is 5/8 or .62 inches. This seems close enough for me.

    Knowing this, if you are setting targets on a bad day with windy conditions you can set the targets to the standard setting THEN make minor corrections to adjust for the prevailing conditions. However, you would be amazed at how little of an adjustment is necessary from your standard target to obtain shootable targets.

    The point being, on a good day you can set very consistent targets field to field and shooters will be happy. On a bad day you can adjust from a known standard on each field and throw very consistent targets and shooters will be happy. Last time I checked we do this for fun. Most shooters like to shoot good targets and good scores. If you want to have shooters return to your club, make an effort to set the best targets you can. They will appreciate the effort and come back for more.

    Thanks and shoot well, Bob Schultz Toll free 800-684-6329"
     
  18. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Pat said; "If one trap is set 12 inches lower than another trap, you cannot use the same angle on the plate to get 10 feet high at 10 yards. The angle must be greater".


    I agree 100%. The solution is to not use a T-Bar.


    What will the flight path look like with your 12 inch low trap and T-Bar scenario? Real ugly. The targets will be way, way to high at 15 yds to 20 yds out, roughly the distance they are shot at.

    Also diagram on paper a flight path with a trap that is 12 inches higher and T-Bar, comparing the flight path especially at 15 yds to 20 yds out. Those targets will be considerably lower than your 12 inch high scenario.
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bob Schultz and I have both discussed setting targets and set targets together. Bob and I agree that the most important thing a club can do is set good targets. Also, both Bob and I started our sport as trap boys in the house. We have talked about the things we did with targets to shooters who were not so nice to us. I will get to shoot with Bob again in a couple of weeks.

    My favorite trick was at the end of the day, turn over a couple of targets and fill them with oil. After a week of soaking, the targets were hard to break. Bob was a trap boy in NY where it gets very cold. He would turn over a couple of targets and fill them with water. The next week the water had turned into ice. They would fly about 75 yards while the other targets would go 50 yards. Trap boys have to have some fun now and then.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    That's hilarious, Pat. Thanks for the 'pointers'. We've been known to 'experiment' occasionally, and needed a couple new gigs. Thanks again.
     
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