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45 pistol ammo?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by dolphin77, Nov 15, 2009.

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  1. dolphin77

    dolphin77 Member

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    I am just getting into shooting handguns and would like info on the difference in 45 ammo.....45 ACP, 45 GAP, etc....? Thanks WC
     
  2. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    try M1911.org web site
     
  3. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Google them and be prepared for a long read.

    The 45 Auto was designed to replace the 45 Colt's revolver cartridge a very long time ago. It has a loyal following, and has been the Gold Standard for defensive pistol rounds.

    The 45 GAP was designed to have the power of a 45 Auto in a small bore platform. The original 45 GAP in the Glock pistol basically uses the 9/40 frame. The 45 Auto round operates at less pressure, is longer, and is on a larger, heavier frame.

    The 45 Auto has been around since Moses was a pup. The 45 GAP is gaining acceptance by Law Enforcement, but is being slowly received by Armed Citizens.
     
  4. Sky Buster

    Sky Buster Sky Buster TS Supporters

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    The .45 Gap and 357 Sig are both dead horses for L.E. and civilians.
    Talk with your local dealer and see how much of either they sell. Alot
    of shops don't even stock those calibers. It's 9mm, .40 and .45acp.
     
  5. perazzitms

    perazzitms TS Member

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    45ACP = .45 Auto Colt Pistol. Basically your grandfather's .45. You end up with either a single stack mag (al'a 1911 - 7 rounds) or a stagered mag in a very large grip (al'a Glock 21 - 13 rounds).

    45GAP = .45 Glock Auto Pistol. Glock's attempt to put a .45 cal bullet in the standard, smaller, more comfortable (for some) frame (al'a standard Glock 17). Case is a little shorter than the ACP case.

    The GAP is a good round, but some people see it as the answer to a question that hasn't been asked. If you want a .45 bullet but don't like the (very) large Glock 21 frame, it might be for you. It's not real popular, but I see ammo for it in every gun store I go in.

    The 357SIG is what a .357 magnum would be in an auto pistol. It's a hell of a round, but not for pussies. Delaware State Police shoot it. It's like a 9mm ultra mag - sends a 125 gr 9mm bullet out there at 1350+ fps. Will put them in the dirt every time, but it ain't no fun to shoot.
     
  6. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

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    As stated, the GAP is just one more answer to the question that had not been asked, we haven't sold a box in six months...no longer stock it. The 40 is popular but not in great demand...it is the only one we always have ammo for. The ACP is the gold standard for defense (and offense)...and we have a heck of a time getting much of it to sell. I'm glad I reload and stocked up on bullets, powder but not enough primers.....

    Nines, 38s, 357s, are still short here in central IL unless you want to pay double retail at Duck Hills.

    Best arguments for reloading yet is our new pres and speaker...if you don't, you ought to read up on it.. a mould, some powder, primers, cases and you're set regardless of what the bozos dream up....
     
  7. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    45 ACP the round that God and John Moses Browning intended for all good men to carry to defend themselves, family, citizens, and country with. Everything else is just posing. It carry's 7 or 8 or 10 rounds in the magazine depending on how much you want sticking out the butt. Just like all guns designed by the greatest gun designer of all time it fits any hand like it was made to and works exactly like it is supposed to. Anyone can shoot it well, low recoil, low noise, accurate, just perfect but it's one of JMB's creations so what can you expect?

    It was reported that the girth of the grip has to be huge if you want one that takes the so called Hicap magazines, this is not true, ParaOrdance makes pistols that hold at least 14 45 acp rounds with the same girth as the original although a little more blocky, STI makes them even better in hi cap and they even feel good. If you can find a Wilson hi cap 45 called the KZ you can have at least ten in the mag with a really trim grip so the choices are many. The bottom line is unless you intend to go on an offensive campaign, you will find the capacity of the standard 1911 to be plenty. With the superior "ergonomics" allowing first round hit capability to be unequaled which is going to quickly end hostilities in most civilian encounters.

    On the other hand, Gunshop commando operators need to carry 2 or 3 Fn 5.7's, and a few special made in Pakistan combat knives to be ready when the Chinese Army attacks thru the doors at the mall. Oops almost forgot the urban cammo and the AR15 completely mounted with two search lights, a green and a red laser, a 18x30 long range scope, a 1x4 short range scope, a super short range red dot with BUIS (that's back up iron sights to us civies), co-witnessed of course, night vision, bayonet with wire cutter, of course the bipod and folding stock is SOE. At least one 100 round drum with a back up and at least 20, 30 rounders just to be sure all loaded with the latest ammo tested in secret on goats in Switzerland only available to the cognoscenti. You must wear everything underarmour makes, plus you have to have all the 5.11 Tactical gear they make. I wish I had time to go into all the back up equipment but there is a limit to what I can reveal on this format. I can't afford to irritate this group.

    The 45 GAP is a product of a Austrian company that makes a dam good entrenching tool. They tried to fit true 45 ACP performance in a smaller girly sized pistol for the metrosexual bunch. It is not popular with anyone except maybe the Pink Pistol group (google them) and will disappear soon, (just try to find some now). The ammo costs more than real ammo. Jeff Cooper or John Wayne would have never approved a round like that.

    The 357 Sig sounded like a good idea. They promised true 357 magnum performance in an auto pistol. But first they put it in a crunchunticker double action pistol that has a trigger pull they compared to a Smith revolver which is like comparing a Precision Perazzi trigger to a rusty staple gun left out on the range a year or two. Then they powered down the ammo so that it doesn't have as much power especially out of a short barrel. Then there is the recoil, Smith revolver grips have this genius design that spreads out the recoil, yep it rides up a bit but that takes the sting out and gives you time to get another trigger pull started just in case you need it. With the Autos is just slams into the web of your hand, not to mention the blinding blast and ear splitting noise. So you end up with a numb hand no vision and no eyesight, hardly ready to take on the next bad guy. On the plus side the muzzle blast may have set him on fire even if you missed him with the bullet.

    There is another 45 round well worth mentioning, the long vaunted 45 Colt, no it's not called the 45 long Colt only neophyte gun writers and gunshop hangarounds call it that. Like the venerated 45 acp it shoots a nice fat heavy bullet at a reasonable speed so it doesn't tear you hand apart and blow your ear drums apart. It is a rimmed cartridge so it is primarily available in revolvers, single action cowboy type if you like, or some more modern double action types. Many men have fallen to this cartridge, General Patton carried two of them and gave Pancho Vila's gang all they could handle with them. So you can't go wrong with the 45 Colt, at least until you run it dry and then reloading is a little too slow to do under fire, well unless you're this guy that came out of the Louisiana swamp who does things with a revolver earthlings can never duplicate.

    So there you have it, the 45 acp is king. No debate required.
     
  8. RV4driver

    RV4driver TS Member

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    Yeah, what he said.

    Jeff
     
  9. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    357 Sig in a 1911 is a GREAT.. soft shooting..powerful.. accurate gun.. Not for gurley men..
     
  10. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    With all due respect Mr. PBB, and I mean that sincerely I've read a lot of your posts and know you are playing with a lot of pistols right now. But what can the 357 sig in a 1911 do for a civilian ccw carrier that a 1911 in 45 acp won't? I'm talking realistic situations not something out of the movie "Heat".

    I must explain why I love the 45 acp so much. I like the big hollowpoints, make mine 230 grain please. Thing is if they expand some of them grow to like 75 caliber and have enough umph to make it to some vital organs. If it don't expand for whatever reason it still works like a 230 grain 45 acp ball which ain't no slouch, ball in a 45 has a good track record. The smaller calibers use expansion to make up for lack in diameter, when they expand they get almost or as big as a 45, when they don't they make a smaller hole. My research tells me all you can realistically depend on in pistol ammo is damage to the parts they actually touch, hydrostatic shock can't be reliable until you get to rifle class ammo. So big bullet is going to touch more parts of the bad guy no matter what. The big slow bullet in a 1911 is easier to shoot, not as loud, not much flash. That 357 has a lot of noise, recoil, and flash, none of which I want to contend with when my bacon is on the line.

    Now if I was hunting something that couldn't eat me I might play around with the other calibers, probably a hot 10mm. If I'm hunting something that might eat me I'm taking a rifle, in fact a pistol is just something to have when you can't have a rifle or to help you get to your rifle.

    But I have killed 3 deer with my 45. All dead with one shot, the first with a nasty old Black Talon from a tree stand at 10 yds, shot straight down bullet expanded and made a mess. Number two was with a handloaded hard 200 grain semi wadcutter loaded pretty hot, standing side shot from 35-40 yds, nice shot went thru an thru, got lungs and a little heart, went about 100 yds and collapsed. Number three was bedded down and jumped up right in front of me scared the shiite out of me and him, snap shot out of the holster, lucky for me not so good for him. Hornaday 230 grain xtp reload at 950fps right in the heart, did not exit but dropped him right there. I don't think a 357 sig would do any better unless I had a long barrel and a scope and was trying a 100 yd shot. Which aint pistol hunting as far as I'm thinking.
     
  11. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    I love my 45's too.. and have no bone to pick with a 10mm either.. Just I built a neat little Commander with a 357 Sig.. and Wilson Comp.. Sooo easy to carry.. and packs a good punch.. The bottle neck case will feed without a bullet.. It doesn't miss a beat.. I like the flash..the bark..everything about it.. Yes..I love my 45 acp too..but it does have brothers and sisters..


    One of the 6" 1811's I built for target use is a 357 Sig.. What a joy to shoot.. powerful,wery accurate..


    Now.. hunting.. I'm designing a 357 Super.. which is a 45 Win Mag case shortened to .996 and necked down to .357.. It will be working in the 32,000 psi range..

    If that doesn't work out.. there's always the 460 Rowland..


    The reality is..as many 1911's as I build.. I carry a Para with a Colt Commander slide in 45 ACP that Ross Carter built for me.. It always go bang..

    All Good.. Mike
     
  12. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Depending on what part of the country one is in, the Gap and 357 Sig are both good sellers. It is hard to keep Sig ammo in stock in our store in Middle Tenn, and the GAP is a slow, but steady seller. We have sold several Glocks and Sigs in both calibers.

    The 45 Auto is a good defensive round, but knowledgeable folks will admit there is more than one good defensive round.

    If one has smaller hands, the small bore frame is a good choice. The 1911, believe it or not, is not always the best choice for the Armed Professional or Citizen.

    When I do my classes, I ask the students to be honest and indicate whether they really intend to practice and become proficient with their carry firearm.

    Unfortunately, most students honestly are not willing to spend the time and effort (sigh).

    After a lot of money and time, the FBI has concluded that bullet placement is more important than bullet size. Most of us could have saved them a lot of money and time with this info.
     
  13. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    That's one of the best points about the 1911 it will fit a variety of hand sizes. I had some females I had to qualify at one time with the 1911 believe it or not. Recoil was not a problem and they could hit good with them but some had pretty small hands. We found some of the old short triggers and flat backstraps and then they had no problems at all. One we had to shave the grips down some, now you can buy thin grips, this was in ancient times. You have to have an extremely small hand to not be able to handle a 1911 with a short trigger and flat backstrap. A lot of these new guns look small but if you put a tape around them you find they look small but are fat.

    If you are not willing to spend the time and effort to become safe and proficient with your weapon system you shouldn't be carrying it around period. It's cool right now to think the plastic no safety pistols are easier to achieve proficiency and safety, that is absolute BS and backwards. These no safety pistols need more training than the old 1911 or any other pistol with a safety system. Why? Because you have to teach them to use the safety. With the others you can't, they aint got one. All you can say is don't point it in the wrong place, keep your finger off the trigger, that's right you don't have to think. BS

    Life ain't like a trap range where you don't need a safety, it's more like hunting in the woods with other hunters around, you need to use your safety correctly.

    I have a friend who was an instructor for the LA PD when they transitioned from revolvers to the Beretta 92F. Guess what they had fewer unintentional discharges with the 92F than with the revolver!!!!
     
  14. JH

    JH Well-Known Member

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    Given ammo shortages and exorbitant prices...and availability issues...it is a no brainer: .45 ACP!

    The other "exotic" stuff is for people who are bored, have too much money and need novelty, excitement and exclusivity in their lives...(too many other guns?)....

    Resale is an issue. Exotic calibers are hard to get rid of....
    Besides, if you like to shoot a lot, you will very seldom find lots of exotic ammo on sale (if you reload, you will have trouble finding brass and will pay a premium)....

    Makes no sense to me...stick to .45 ACP it is proven and the other stuff only has- at best-a theoretical ballistic/lethality advantage...and theories are like a$$holes, everyone has one....
     
  15. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Today.. if you want cheap ammo.. and plentiful.. get a 1911 in 40 S&W... When the crunch came down.. 40 brass was still cheap.. where 45 brass got very expensive.. OR at least down here.. Nice thing about a 1911.. it's easy to fit an extra barrel so you can shoot many different types of ammo..
     
  16. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    When the ammo crunch got bad this spring, 45 Auto, along with most calibers, was nonexistent. Oddly enough, the GAP round was available, and cheaper. Go figure it. 40 cal brass was always plentiful. :^)

    The poster who said "If you are not willing to spend the time and effort to become safe and proficient with your weapon system you shouldn't be carrying it around period" is absolutely right.

    However, the "crunchunticker" type pistol is here to stay, and the up to date trainer will add it to his training regimen. Any trainer who ridicules the newer type pistols will be ridiculed himself.

    Personally, I prefer that a student who will not train with his carry firearm have a small 38 Double Action Only revolver. The Smith & Wesson 640/642 types stand out.

    What caused me to go back to the Glock for good was a Reduced Light Instructor Class I took a while back. All Glocks, 12,000+ rounds were fired, ZERO stoppages (other than those set up), ZERO ND's, you get the idea. All 12 of us were Instructors, but I have seen mutton headed Trainers in my area.

    Recently, a person very large as a trainer in my area ND'd a round in front of a class on a Military range while facing up range. His firearm was a Ruger SP-101. Somehow, he is still in business.
     
  17. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

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    My next gun and first .45 is going to be the Kimber ultra carry, I had one in my hands at Cabelas yesterday and I did not want to let go.

    I currently carry a Smith M&Pc 9mm. I like it a lot but that 2 piece trigger has a gritty feel to it.
     
  18. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Just to clear up an urban misconception.....You can not just swap barrels in a 1911.

    <em>Nice thing about a 1911.. it's easy to fit an extra barrel so you can shoot many different types of ammo.</em>

    Actually you can only shoot ammo from within the same case head family......You cannot shot 9mm, switch a barrel and shoot 45acp....won't function,(although you may be able to get it to fire, you would have to change, complete top end and the mag and the ejector.

    Just clearing up a over used urban myth.
     
  19. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget the .45 S&W, the .45 Auto Rim and my favorite the .45 'short colt' which is the .45 colt cut down to acp length for use in .45 colt recolvers. Solves the problem of too much empty space in the case common with low vel smokeless .45 colt loads.
     
  20. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    221 is right..The head sizes must match.. but in the case of a 38 Super.. 9mm ..9X21...9X23..30 Luger.. 30 Mauser..will also work on the slide... A 40 S&W slide will also work with a 357 Sig.. 9X25 Dillon..10mm mag.. A 45 ACP slide will work with a 38/45 400 Corbon 40 Super 41 Avenger 45 Gap 45 Rowland 45 Super and maybe some others... While I don't like to fit multiple slides to a frame.. Fitting barrels poises no problem.. and quick and easily changed..

    Now.. while I'm here.. I'm learning you may.. or may not need to fit a different extractor for different cases..depending on head design.. IE..38 Super/9mm even though the part is the same.. the fitting could be different..

    While we have a captive crowd.. Ever hear of a 40 Super.. Fits on a 45 acp slide..and might just be a perfect hunting round.. More power than a 10mm mag..and way more than a 400 Corbon..


    All Good.. Mike
     
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