1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

45 G.A.P. vs 40 S&W...

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Loyac, Aug 25, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Loyac

    Loyac Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    686
    Following up on a previous thread of mine... In full sized Glock frames, which round do you think is more effective for home defense applications? Thanks! John
     
  2. The Kolar Kid

    The Kolar Kid TS Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    151
    Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

    .45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

    .45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

    .44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

    .44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

    .44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

    .44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

    .41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

    .41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

    10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

    10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

    .40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

    .40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

    .38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

    .38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

    .357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

    .357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

    .357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

    .357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

    9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

    9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

    .380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

    .32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

    .25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

    .22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2
     
  3. The Kolar Kid

    The Kolar Kid TS Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    151
    You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.

    KK
     
  4. Tdog

    Tdog TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    282
    I would think that the better availability of the .40 S&W would make it a better choice. I haven't priced any .45 GAP lately but I believe that it is more expensive than the .40 S&W. If you practice with any regularity both of these issues will be important.
     
  5. FN in MT

    FN in MT TS Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    297
    I agree that the .40 S&W would be easier to deal with than the GAP ctg. FAR cheaper and more available to be sure.

    MX-8B....WHY the .357 SIG showed such a low number? They used the 147 gr looading,which is the slowest loading available. Had they used the 125 gr loading thats probably issued 95% of the time to LE Agencies the numbers would have been much higher.

    FN
     
  6. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,357
    Location:
    Nashville Tn
    With all respect, I have a passing knowledge of the 357 Sig and its growing pains. Early loads used the 9X19 bullets, and the extra velocity caused them to prematurely expand and limit penetration.

    The new generation of projectiles for this cartridge have, in my opinion, been over engineered. They over penetrate and often do not expand. If you are trying to defend yourself against an offender behind an oven, refrigerator, or car, you have a good firearm.

    During testing by our Tenn Highway Patrol, senior officers concluded the 357 Sig should NOT be adopted because of increased risk of liability due to ricoshet. They concluded the 357 Sig was more dangerous in this regard than the 5,56mm PATROL RIFLE!! Considering that most lethal confrontations involving Law Enforcement have a hit ratio of from 10% to 15%, this is something to consider. Where are those misses going?

    Politicians being what they are, they adopted the round immediately. We (State Certified Trainers) are trying to get the round taken off the approved list of calibers used by Law Enforcement and Private Protective Security. The 40 is a more suitable round, for usable controllable horsepower.

    Getting back to the original question, for those with an affinity to a 45 caliber sidearm who want a lighter, small framed carry gun,the GAP is the obvious answer.

    Practically speaking, as a student of the gun for over half a century, I would say the 40 cal is the Gold Standard, and is more than sufficient for self defense and patrol chores.
     
  7. CalvinMD

    CalvinMD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,854
    Location:
    Northeastern MD @ the top o the Bay
    For me the apparent ability to stop an assailant is fairly equal...since the 40 cal guns can hold an extra couple of rounds with excellent defense bullets along with wide ammo availability from all makers ..thats the way I would go
     
  8. FN in MT

    FN in MT TS Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    297
    No disrespect meant to the TN Hwy Patrol. Nor am I trying to denegrate You or Your Agency in any way.

    Several years ago I was involved in TWO seperate Test Boards involving the evaluation of several police type rounds including the 357 sig. We fired into water, gelatin, auto glass, auto bodies,ballistic vests etc. Then over the years the rounds were used on a LOT of road hit/injured game and farm animals. We didn't find the WW or RP 125 gr sig bullets to be anything but near perfectly designed!

    Richochets never really came up. We DID have some richochet issues with .45 acp ball as well as 9mm ball ammo but whats the point? We wouldn't issue a FMJ RN slug anyway.

    The 125 gr .357 sig WW Ranger round has worked out VERY well for us. We carried SIG 229's now for the past six or so years and they have been equally trouble free.

    If You look at shooting data over the years the 4" .357 mag revolver firing a 125 gr HP seemed to work pretty well. The ballistics of the SIG round are basically the same.

    I carried a 4" .357 mag for a lot of years and later the same guns but with PC .38 Spcl +P rds. The 357 SIG when used on injured game/farm animals put them
    down with authority. Reminded me of the old days when we carried a REAL magnum round.

    Currently the Air Marshalls carry the 229's in .357 sig, as well as many other State Police and Govt Agencies. I've never heard of any issues with the gun or the ctg.

    FN in MT (Montana Hwy Patrol retired)
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,429
    HOME DEFENSE!!! Do you really want a very powerful round that will go through one or two walls and kill a family member or neighbor? HMB
     
  10. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    To answer the original question, There is little advantage for the .45 GAP in a full size frame Glock. It was designed for a smaller compact handgun using a round with similar ballistics to the .45 Auto. I would prefer the .45 over the .40, but it's a tough choice to make. .45 Auto +P would be my choice in a full frame Glock. If limited to a smaller framed gun, the .45 GAP would be a good choice if a .45 caliber were desired. I would prefer to make bigger holes if I were doing serious social work and were limited to a full sized Glock frame.
     
  11. Scoutman 06

    Scoutman 06 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    318
    FN in MT......OT I know but what does 3-7-77 stand for? John
     
  12. bridgetoofar

    bridgetoofar TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    971
    3-7-77 = the size of a hole where you spend time after you stop breathing.
     
  13. bridgetoofar

    bridgetoofar TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    971
    FN's connection to those numbers relate to the following:

    3-7-77 was the infamous symbol of the Vigilance Committee in Montana during the Old West. People who had the mysterious set of numbers '3-7-77' painted on their tent or cabin knew that they had better leave the area or be on the receiving end of vigilante justice. To this day the numbers appear on the shoulder patch of the Montana Highway Patrol, who say they do not know the original meaning of the symbol. It also appears on the flight suits of pilots of the Montana Air National Guard.
     
  14. bobby ward

    bobby ward Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    334
    John,

    Here is a test for you. Go to the store or stores where you would normally buy your ammo and see what is more readily available. I am betting you find as I did that 9mm and .45 overwhelm the others in shelf inventory. I recently sold my Glock G35 and will take possession of my new G21 tomorrow afternoon. I found the recoil of the .40 very sharp and seemingly more than my buddies G21. In my travels locally, I found exactly ONE load in .40. 180 grain FMJ. I have my choice of 5-7 different loads in .45 basically everywhere I go.

    Your choice so make it wisely
     
  15. omahasportingsupply

    omahasportingsupply TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,138
    A wealth of information to digest. Gives a person a lot to think about.
     
  16. mallardfilmore

    mallardfilmore TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    181
    USPSA is not called Action Pistol. Action Pistol is an NRA match and is what is shot at the Bianchi Cup.
     
  17. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,226
    I carry a smith wesson 4013 tactical in 40cal. the gun carrys well for me I can get my hand on it smoothly. I also carried a 45 1911. love the gun but got heavy after a while. both 40 and 45 are locally available. As stated I do not see gap or sig ammo to often.
     
  18. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,567
    Location:
    Southeast Michigan - O/S Detroit
    In the late 1960's and early 1970's, the FBI tested a number of rounds to replace the existing .38 S&W Special 158gr lead bullets then in use. After extensive testing, they established the Model 19 S&W, 4" barrel, using a 125gr JHP. Police departments around the country adopted the combination, although some opted for Colt "J" frames or S&W "N" frames, since there was doubt about the "K" frame to sustain hard use from .357 magnum loads. The "K" frame was designed specifically to handle .38 special loads. Subsequent usage bore this out, and its been discussed in detail on this site.

    The 125gr JHP has slightly less recoil, but has excellent penetration and expansion. Replacing 158gr lead bullets virtually eliminated the "shoot through" which had plagued law enforcement for years. It had the effect of making the perps lay down very quickly.

    As mentioned in another thread, round lead, whether bullets or buck shot tend to over-penetrate and do not expand well in human targets.

    The .357 125gr JHP is still the load of choice for my Colt Python, especially when I have it loaded for home defense.

    An excellent carry or home defense gun would be a 1911 commander-type frame using .40 cal HP ammunition. My own guns are the Model 27 Glock with 180gr STP WW , and a full-size Kimber Custom with 185gr WW Silver-Tips.

    General Hatcher's ratings have been disputed with more modern testing. It's certainly understandable that a wadcutter may indeed be rated higher than round-nosed or FMJ ammo. However, testing has consistently shown that the JHP is still the top stopper.

    Best,
    Dennis
     
  19. FN in MT

    FN in MT TS Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    297
    My old buddy bridgetoofar had it pretty much correct. The 3-7-77 carved on a saddle or on a cabin door gave the evil doer a time frame to LEAVE TOWN. IF they chose to disregard the warning they ended up in a hole 3x7x77. The dimensions of a standard grave.

    The Vigilantes were a secretive group. But historians agree that the numerals ARE the dimensions of a grave and it was meant to be a warning to leave the Territory.

    FN in MT
     
  20. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,651
    3 inches wide, 7 inches long and 77 inches deep ? Not sure about most of the posters here, but given a proper enema, they could be buried in a shoe box!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page

3x7x77