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45-70 LOADS

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by big joe, May 8, 2010.

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  1. big joe

    big joe Member

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    I have a Ruger Number 1 In 45-70. There are plenty of low velocity (900-1100 fps)loads listed using lead bullets and powders such as Unique and Red Dot.
    Since I have a large supply of jacketed bullets are there any problems using jacketed instead of lead assuming equal bullet weight.?

    Joe
     
  2. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Yes Use Data for your Jacketed bullets and not lead bullets. Lots of load Data use it .
     
  3. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

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    Low velocity loads for lead could cause the jacketed bullet to stick..unlikely, but possible.

    Want fun, try this...shoots in an inch at a hundred all day, under four at 200:
    Lyman 457124 with Alox lube, five grains Dupont Bulk Shotgun Smokeless under 55 grains of real black powder, FFg, a card wad on top, and seat the bullet just into the rifling....cleans up with a couple wet, one dry patch and makes the wonderful smoke and smell of the old days. (you can substitute Red Dot for the Dupont ss)
     
  4. Chichay

    Chichay TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    The pressures you'll generate will not be the same. And even though the No. 1 has a robust action, .45-70 brass are not known for strength. Call the manufacturer of your jacketed bullet for load suggestions. Chichay
     
  5. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    "Low velocity loads for lead could cause jacketed bullets to stick...."

    I would be concerned about that too, jacketed bullets don't slide down the bore as easily as lead.

    John C. Saubak
     
  6. omgb

    omgb Well-Known Member

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    I load and shoot the 45-70 and the 45-90. Drop me a PM and we can discuss loads. Jacketed and lead loads are not interchangeable. The friction coefficient in the barrel is way different and thus the pressures are significantly different.
     
  7. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    45-70 is a great cal. I use a 300 gr bullet. The 400 and up loads or bullets are a good and I mean GOOD hand full. It will rock you on the bench.
     
  8. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Big Joe

    Play it safe and use the right powder and amount. The issue is not strength. The brass will take over 40,000 PSI with ease. The issue is a bullet lodged in the bore.

    I have used Reloder 7 for many years. The 4198's will work as well. I have never seen the need to load the old war horse up to Magnum levels. The 300 grain bullet at 1500-1600 fps and the 405 at 1300-1400 fps work very well on most any game, and these loads are pleasant to shoot.

    An alternate is to use a compressed load of very slow powder like Accurate 8700. 60 gr will give black powder velocities with smokeless clean up, and is surprisingly accurate.

    I prefer magnum primers in the large case.

    For plinker loads, stay with the cast bullets. Magnus makes very good ones, and Berry makes a good plated bullet.

    The bulk Remington 405 gr bullet is one of the best available. Accurate beyond expectations, and with game anchoring ability, without destroying delicious venison, that will please you.
     
  9. W.R.Buchanan

    W.R.Buchanan Member

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    As cautioned above, squib loads for lead bullets will not generate enough pressure to push a jacketed bullets thru the bore. Just like in shotguns, your next shot may be your last.

    Handloader Magazine has done several reccent articles on the 45-70, the best of which is from the August of 2007 article entitled "Handloading the 45-70 for the Marlin 1895", by Brian Pierce. This article is probably one of the most complete works on this cartridge ever done, and there is literally a lifetime of information IE; you don't need any other info on the subject. Spend $5 bucks and get a back issue from Wolfe Publishing. Best advise on this subject I can give is to read this article about 50 times like I have. (toilet reading).

    There are 4 categories of 45-70 loads: below 21,000psi, suitable for 1873 Springfield rifles, up to 28,000psi, 35,000psi and 43,000psi. Anything with a 400grn solid bullet above 28,000psi will kill anything on earth including '59 DeSotos, and some light trucks.

    A new model 1895 Marlin rifle will swallow anything from the above list, and out live it's "owners". Your Ruger will safely shoot anything from the above categories and well beyond. You probably will only pull the trigger on a 40,000 psi + load once, and you'll remember it to the grave. These are serious guns that are so versitile they can be loaded for anything from tincans to dinosaurs, and the new guns and new brass make it more so. At 137 years old it is an old warhorse, but that doesn't mean it is by any stretch of the imagination obsolete, in fact it is more popluar and versitile now than ever before.

    Name brand brass, IE: Winchester, Remington, Starline will take 60,000 psi and "fall out" of the chamber. NOT THAT YOU WOULD EVER LOAD IT THAT HOT !!!!

    The way to avoid getting a bullet stuck in the bore is to not get lead built up in the first place. Leading is caused by gas escaping around the base of the bullet, and soldering the lead to the bore.

    You avoid this by using cast bullets with gas checks on them for midrange loads, and/or correcting loads that do lead the barrel by altering the powder type, velocity, or bullet diameter.

    You can't run plain base bullets above about 12-1300fps without leading, so you use gas checks. You can run 400grn RCBS 45-405RNGC bullets to beyond 2000fps with no problems whatsoever, except for your shoulder. Gas checks scrape any lead left by the preceeding shot out, but since the gas check is on the rear end of the bullet there is none left behind anyway, because the gas can't get past the base of the bullet and melt it in the first place.

    I shoot the RCBS 45-300RNGC (round nose gas check) which is the same as the 45-405 RNGC except it is shorter. There is also a 45-500 RNGC which is the same bullet except longer. Gas checks just make things easier and there is little price to pay for them @ 2-3 cents ea. All of these bullet moulds and gas checks are available from Midway and others. Premade bullets like this are available from Cast Performance, LBT, and others. See Midway, Cabelas, etc.

    I can load the 300 grain bullets down to 1000fps for plinking, or run them right up to 2000fps for anything in N/A. I would choose to shoot the 405 cast bullets for Elk and Big Bears. I can also shoot my own turned 400gr brass solids at 2000fps for elephants, should one ever invade my home. There are more bullets made for this cartridge now than ever before, Barnes and others even have no lead HP expanding bullets that look like a spinning rose as they pass thru meat. Very vicious! Nothing made of meat has any chance whatsoever!

    As far as the Bullet in Bore scenerio,,,, If you shoot a jacketed round thru a badly leaded bore you will definately know about it. The bullet won't stick in the bore, but the pieces of the barrel might stick in your head. If you live to tell about it, you probably will pay a little closer attention to what you are shooting and what it is doing. Point being if you are leading a barrel so bad it blows up, the problem was well established and you did nothing about it. It takes alot of neglect, and alot of stupidity, to lead a barrel that badly.

    Using gas check bullets puts an end to all of this worry.

    I highly recommend "Handloader Magazine" as a source for very accurate information on reloading just about anything, and from people that genuinely know what they are talking about. They discuss all of the above problems at least twice a year.

    I got a chance to talk about solid brass 45-70 loads and how far they penetrate with Dave Scovill Editor of Handloader at the SHOT Show a few months ago. I can assure you all he and his staff have more knowledge on the subject of handloading in their little fingers than all of us could gather in many life times. They have definately "been there, done that" real first hand experience.

    Incidentally the 45-70 is one of the easiest rounds to get good results from there is. So instead of worrying yourself sick, just bone up on the subject and have fun!

    Randy
     
  10. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Randy is right about the 45/70. I also agree that it is NOT obsolete! The Ruger is the best of both worlds. It allows Dangerous Game Rifle performance when required, and at the same time allows the lightest cast bullet loads to be enjoyed.

    I typically load to Trap Door pressures. I have yet to see anything outside of a Zoo that this load will not harvest, or stop dead in its tracks.

    It seems mass issued US Military Rifle cartridges are extraordinarily well balanced and versatile. The 45/70, 30/40, 30/06, 308/7.62 and 223/5.56 are legendary in performance and versatility.

    Enjoy the old Warhorse!
     
  11. TC

    TC TS Member

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    Does anyone make a spire point for use in a single shot?
     
  12. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I've run soft lead bullets in my 45-70 over 1400 fps without leading, and without using gas checks.

    However, I'm using a very soft bullet lube, and a beeswax wad sandwiched between two wads made from file folder material.

    This is also a blackpowder load.

    "Smokeless powder is a passing fad."
     
  13. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Hornady makes their LeveRevolution ammo and 325 gr component bullet. This ominous looking projectile should increase downrange thump. Slow twist 45/70's should do well with this weight bullet.

    It is light enough to see around 2000 fps, and heavy enough to be a freight train at impact. I would still estimate its most effective range at under 200 yards.

    I still prefer the stodgy old 405 gr Remmy Flat Point, launched to 1400 fps, at ranges under 100 yards. Most any critter shot with it will fold up quickly, and you can eat right up to the hole.
     
  14. big joe

    big joe Member

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    GREAT INFO!! thanks everyone

    Joe
     
  15. W.R.Buchanan

    W.R.Buchanan Member

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    Coach: you left out some mil rounds that are exceptional as well 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, 7x57, 8x57, all are very versitile rounds.

    It should be noted that except for the .223 and .308 every cartridge on the expanded list is 100+ years old..

    Every one has killed everything on earth, and every one is still going well today.

    New cartridges are like new jokes. Everything worthy of note has already been done, done well, and done several different times, ad nauseum:

    The major relatively recent (last 20 years)improvements in accuracy are as a result of 2 major points. Better Bullets, and better machinery making guns to closer tolerances. I'd say better barrels also but after talking to the head engineer from Krieger and finding out they are still using WW 1 rifling machines, I am dropping that idea.

    The bullet designs right now are better than any before, and the techniques to make them have been refined to the Nth degree. This has resulted in a level of consistancy and uniformity never before seen.

    The guns being made on CNC machinery are so close to print and the tolerances are so narrow that all of the obvious variables have been eliminated.

    When I see Dick Metcalf (gun writer) take an out of the box Savage F Class Rifle in .308 cal, an $800 rifle, and shoot several 5 shot groups under 5/8" at 500 yards with Factory Federal .308 match ammo, and his handloads only got worse, then I know we have arrived at the "best there is, best there ever will be".

    Friends it doesn't get any better, in fact it can't get any better. the simple fact is that after you produce virtual perfection the only way left to go,,, is down.

    I hate change for the sake of change, Obviously I am conservative, but there are just some things you can't really improve on, and the simple fact is they don't "need" to be improved. they accomplish every task delegated to a fitting end.

    Things like the DC-3 airplane, the DeHaviland Beaver, and Otter, the 30-06, the 12ga these are things that do what they are supposed to do. Can't they just be left alone.

    The 45-70 falls into this category and has been improved to it's current peak with better bullets and better guns. Best to just enjoy it, it ain't broke no need to fix.

    Randy
     
  16. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of 45-70, I just came across my old Lee hand loader, the one you use with a hammer. That brings back memories.
     
  17. TC

    TC TS Member

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    Thanks Coach, trying for a very accurate long range target round. Thought the spire point would be an improvement.
     
  18. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Randy

    The fine rounds you mentioned are not US Military, but the three you mentioned, especially the 7X57, are more versatile than about anything out there.

    When loaded to 60,000 PSI, and chambered in modern arms, these rounds are astonishing.
     
  19. W.R.Buchanan

    W.R.Buchanan Member

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    Coach: Wait til you see my 6.5x55 target rifle, built on a M96 made in 1899!!!
    It's a work in progress.

    The gun before converted would shoot 5 shot 100yard groups of 1.5" with open battle sights using PMC factory ammo. Original barrel!!!

    I'm expecting great things with Berger Bullets and proper target style aperature sights.

    Brian: I still have my first .243 Lee loader I bought in 1970. I still have the plastic hammer I bought to go with it but it's just about done. Sold my Sako .243 rifle in 1980 and I wish I had that one back.

    Randy
     
  20. Texshooter

    Texshooter Member

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    And for more fun have the chamber changed to 45-90. Black powder or smokeless faster loads. (actually I duplex both powders together for my special loads and use Paper Patch bullets). AJ
     
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