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.40 S&W VS. .45ACP, (AGAIN!!!!)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Lead Man, Apr 13, 2009.

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  1. Lead Man

    Lead Man TS Member

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    From the sounds of this article (BS) sounds like we could save money on body armor by just smoking a little pot and wearing a down jacket.

    Who wrote this and where is it posted???
     
  2. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

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    So maybe 9mm fmjs would have penetrated better? Hit 'em in the head.
     
  3. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    I have that FBI report along with the pictures and Xrays of the punks body. It happened in Scranton, Pa. in 2006 The punk shot a young child in a driveby the day before then phoned police the next day to report he seen someone of the discription the police put out. When the police went to the reported area he ambushed them. He was shot 17 times and 11 rounds exited his body. He was shot with 40S&W and 223 Hornady TAP 55 Gr. The FBI report says they were not happy with the performance of the 223 Hornady 55 and 75 gr. TAP ammo and were satisfied with terminal performance of the 40 S&W 180 gr. Gold Dot ammo. The guy had a small trace of weed in his system.
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    That's what they made 45 cal 230 ball ammo for. P.S. it's non magnum and will get the job done. HMB
     
  5. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Lead man, send me an email and I will send you the report along with the pictures. This site would throw me off for posting such material.

    paracongo@comcast.net
     
  6. Wayne of PA

    Wayne of PA Member

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    It’s funny that you brought up the subject of 40SW vs. 45ACP. I have a distance cousin that is a State Trooper here in PA.

    The last time we visited he was dressed for his shift in full uniform and I noticed his Glock and ask him if it was a 9mm or 40SW. He said everyone in his troop switched to 45ACP because the 40SW’s weren’t doing the job.

    I was seriously thinking about buying a 9MM and now I’m not sure what I actually want.

    Dale
     
  7. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    + they don't allow head shots,,,,remember the shooting in Kommifornia a few years ago that took blocks to end,,,,if the sharp shooters (like our wonderful Navy Seals just did) took the head out,,,,GAME OVER!!!!
     
  8. Kerz

    Kerz Member

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    Shot placement is always the ket to sucess.
     
  9. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Let me put my two cents in the discussion. I personally like the 40 S&W Glock and carried it for 25 years... that does not mean I shot anyone [thank you Lord]. A long while ago, CA. Highway Patrol stopped carrying Remington ammo for several reasons -- all have been fixed. But suppose the ammo in this report had insufficient powder or some other problem with its ballistic performance??? Or shot placement simply did not hit a vital organ and the bad guy would have to bleed out. May be someone will make a handgun that will shoot a .223. Of course that opens up another can worms with stray shots. I think any round from a handgun will be limited going threw metal and two cars seats and thick clothing. My choice, if I was on patrol and got into a fight, would be a shot gun SLUG [.50 ca.]. Even if it didn't pentrate it would knock you down. Just my two cents... Fred [not Sarge]
     
  10. Haskins Bill

    Haskins Bill TS Member

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    I read somewhere that the 9MM Luger round was developed just to be able wound and then tie up others helping out wounded soldiers. Yeah I know there have been a lot of people killed by the 9MM but all in all it is a pretty wimpy loading. The 40 S&W was touted as being as powerful as most 357 Mag loadings, I see the fault here in the use of hollow points which will fill up with clothing material and not expand. Should have been using FMJ I guess.I mix FMJ and hollow points in my carry 45 just so one or two will get through the clothing if I find myself in a bad situation. Bill
     
  11. Lead Man

    Lead Man TS Member

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    Once again I will point folks to a truthful instructor. Just do some research at the sight above. Been through his force on force class, top notch. See if you can find some of his info on shoots he was actually involved in.

    Most LEO's can't hit squat and have never drawn their weapon in an actual firefight ( neither have I ). Note the show COPS 49 rounds expended and no one was injured. Seems kinda ironic that they are always the experts.
     
  12. ccw1911

    ccw1911 Member

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    I hope this is not so off topic to offend, if so I'm sure a moderator will take it off.

    In a previous job one of the things I did was give a class on ammunition using information I've gathered from practical experience and lot's of input from the guys like those Seals who took out the pirates. First off shot placement is always the most important factor. I also believe the public has been sold on a faulty premise that bullets which don't exit have more stopping power than those that exit.

    This came about the same time as the 9mm was being touted as the ultimate and perfect pistol round for serious situations. The logic used is completely backwards, rather than stating round A dumped all it's energy in the target and remained there it should be that round A did not have enough energy to completely penetrate the target. Think about catching a baseball that was thrown so fast that is burned itself thru your hand, would the one that you could catch and stop do more damage?

    Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the 9mm hollow point that is highly touted does not generally have enough energy to perforate a human torso after losing the energy used in expanding. Hardball 9mm loaded to Nato specs penetrates very well but leaves icepick type wounds in soft tissue. The 38 special got trashed for lack of stopping power but what is the 9mm but a 38 special +p+ in a more compact package?


    It got so ridiculous at one time I read a column by a respected gun writer that 9mm +P ammo had more stopping power than a 44mag!! Not that the 44 mag hollowpoint is the best round for personal defense but it's foolish to doubt a round that could put a substantial size hole completely thru and thru a persons chest from any angle wouldn't be affective. African hunters who go after animals that will eat you if you don't stop them, go to great lengths to have ammunition that will completely penetrate if at all possible, it's the only way to be sure to reach the vitals.


    Another argument is the hydrostatic shock affect, when talking about pistols this not a big enough or dependable enough factor to stake your life on. Get into rifle velocities and then you can have a massive affect.


    The other argument is that if your bullets completely penetrate you will put innocent bystanders at risk. Well, if you open fire in an area where they are innocent bystanders they are going to be at risk for sure, since something like 70 percent of the rounds fired by police miss the intended target it seems ludicrous to me to worry about the one that might hit the correct target. Taking shots with innocents in view is not a good idea but there are tactics to deal with it, giving up on stopping power is not the best choice in my opinion.

    All this leads to the reasons I like the 45 acp 230 gr hollowpoints. If they don't expand for some reason you still drill a 45 size hole with the same affect as 45 ball which has been well proven to work. I've seen claims for different calibers touting to be as affective as a 45 but I don't seem to see any the other way around. Add to this low recoil, blast, flash, and noise and it's still not been surpassed if you take everything into consideration. There is a reason you see so many organizations going to the 45 lately, and most all of those that really use their weapons often have been using it for some time.

    Pick your weapon, train with it as much as you can. No caliber can make up for lack of marksmanship, well unless you have artillery or air support.
     
  13. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Mr. Malcolm has corrected my time of carrying the 40 Glock to about 20 years. He is probably right because I carried a Glock 17 [9mm] from 1986 [?] until the Glock 23 in 1990 when it first came out, and a Smith & Wesson 38 5 shot, snubby at times as well. Picky, picky... I still like the rifled 50 ca. slug for stopping power. Kind of like being run over by a truck. Fred
     
  14. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    Shoot steel with any standard .40S&W load, then with any standard .45 ACP load. The difference in energy delivered on target is incredible.
     
  15. Lead Man

    Lead Man TS Member

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    Thanks to George for sending the report.

    This has to be the biggest bunch of BS I have ever read.

    The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this
    incident.

    The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition,
    although consistent with manufacturer’s claims,
    did not perform terminally as this Police
    Department expected.

    Quotes from the report I saw. This week was in 2006 a little dated for this week. No names on the report such as the coroner or people who did any testing. A report like this floating around with no proof. LOL

    Any of you folks who think these rounds are under powered should read some suicide reports. Seems there are no reports of botched temporal lobe or under chin shots that end with only 1" penetrations. You are free to do your own test if you believe strongly enough that it won't hurt or slow you down.

    As I said before must be the down jacket and trace amount of pot.
     
  16. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    John, Not saying it is easy,,,,but when the LEO's hands are tied by politicians,,,,it doesn't even give them the opportunity to do the 2 CM 1 to the head, which I agree with,,,,with the rest of the body covered and IIRC from the videos that I saw,,,,there were opportunities to take the head shots,,,,I would also say that the pirates that the Seals took out were not sitting still on the ocean,,,,JMHO
     
  17. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    John Malcolm, the two shots to center of mass and one to the head, what you call the "El Presidente" maneuver, is known more popularly today as the Mozanbique Drill. Same technique, just a different name.
     
  18. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    What ever happened to the OSS (One Shot Stop)data that was used for years? Wayne

    .357mag- 96%

    .45acp &.40- 95%

    10mm- 92%

    9mm- 91%

    .38- 83%

    .380- 70%
     
  19. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Go to this link and read how a felon took 22 hits from a 40 S&W 17 of which were in the center mass and was still kicking.

    http://forum.pafoa.org/pistols-41/52402-hows-stopping-power-22hits-40-s-w-still-alive.html
     
  20. Lead Man

    Lead Man TS Member

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    Power factor does a good job of qualifying a gun for IDPA other than that it's useless.
     
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