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223 reloading help?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by 64special, Apr 10, 2010.

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  1. 64special

    64special TS Member

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    can anyone shed some light on my problem? I have been piercing primers in my 223 Rem 700 every once in a while. I had a gunsmith check it and said the fireing pin is ok. I use 27 gns varget with 55gn v-max and win sm rifle primers. I am told win primers are too soft and should use CCI. Can anyone tell me if 450 cci mag can be used as they are thicker? Do I have to back off on powder? Can not find any data on CCI 450mag Primers in 223. Thanks for any help.
     
  2. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    What brass are you using?

    Neck thickness?

    Case length?

    Seating depth?

    Most important.....why 27g Varget?
     
  3. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    me too why Varget?? That 27 gr and Military brass is a hot load
     
  4. 64special

    64special TS Member

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    case length is ok, bullet depth is good,have used Varget for years and have a lot left. It is a new gun and I used the same data as before. My buddy fired my reloads in his gun and did not have a problem so maybe it is the gun?
     
  5. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    the 27gr is a max load any varible can jump pressure way pass safe levels I would drop to 23 and work up some
    If you dont check every load you may have a case split and lose part of it in barrel
    A 700 will take it but barrel and rifleing wont
     
  6. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    It the mention of Military brass is accurate......there is no 223 mil brass.

    WHAT BRASS?......It's important!!!!!

    Do you measure the necks....thickness and length?

    What do the primers look like when they do not pierce?

    Again WHY 27gr OF VARGET????? is there a load you worked up or was it just a fast load in a book.

    I smart reloader does not keep shooting a load that is piercing primers with out a good reason.

    You are putting your eyesight at risk.
     
  7. 64special

    64special TS Member

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    I do have a mixture of brass. I was told Varget was good when I started useing it I started with 26gns,26.5gns and 27gns got best results with 27gns.My Hodgdon container says 223 Rem 27.5gns 55gn Sp = 3384fps. Thats what I went by.
     
  8. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    When the gunsmith said the firing pin is "ok", I hope he checked firing pin protrusion along with the tip profile. I have no experience with Win SR primers, but excess protrusion will cause problems, especially in combination with some primers and the high end pressure you are using.


    This is a problem you will want to fix sooner rather than latter. Each time a primer is pierced, (very) high pressure gas turns a nice round firing pin tip into a not so nice round tip, which increases the frequency of piercing.
     
  9. sdhunter

    sdhunter TS Member

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    Not a big fan of Varget for 223. I load 23grs reloader 10 topped with a 55 gr soft point with remington bench rest primers. Use this in all my mixed head stamp brass. Deadly accurate and a safe load. Save the varget for 308 etc

    Steve
     
  10. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Reading 27.5 on a powder bottle is not an assurance, that load will be safe in any ones gun.You need to back it down to say 26gr and if all is well then leave it alone.......speed...velocity are of no advantage to you, when you are popping components. The speed you will lose by dropping the charge will not even be noticed.

    Are you Chronographing these loads and recording your velocity spreads?...Your standard deviations?...If you are not and you just continue to load hot loads in mixed brass you may hurt someone or ruin a perfectly good rifle.

    Velocity is secondary to accuracy when it comes to rifle ammo......unless its just for shooting puddles.

    Is any of your brass Mil 5.56?????

    Do you know exactly where the leade is in your chamber....where the bullet ogive contacts the leade.....do you jump the bullet or jam it? HOW MUCH????

    If all this seems wasted energy you may want to stick with shot shells.

    Once you enter the 55-65,000psi range you have to pay attn to little details, and if it's a waste of your time........well

    A 223 rem may be a small cartridge, but it's a small, high intensity one.
     
  11. 6878mm

    6878mm Member

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    Varget is an Aussie powder AR2208
    They list 27gr as max for 55gr proj,
    Back off a little and your problem will go away
     
  12. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    I'm sending a link with primer info, it says its for semi-auto, but it has a lot of information about rifle primers. Is it happening with a particular case, or random? Whats your OAL? IMO I would not be using 27 grains of Varget. Wayne
     
  13. oz

    oz Active Member

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    I have been using CCI 450 mag primers for awhile. back off 1 grain from max to start. they work fine also CCI #41's. I use BLC-2 but varget should be fine. I use hodgdon.com for reloading data.
     
  14. School Teacher

    School Teacher Well-Known Member

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    Why not just shoot 10 rounds or so of commercial .223 ammo like Remington "Green Box". This ammo is loaded to near maximum pressure and is loaded by the rifle manufacturer,

    Look at the primers for any sign of piercing. If none is found, then I doubt that the problem lies with the 700's firing pin.

    I load my .223 with IMR 4895 for accuracy and stay well below the maximum load.

    For speed, I bought some VV N133. At a 90% of maximum load, the starter load in the Speer reloading manual I use, The N133 is almost as accurate as the IMR 4895 with the same case, primer, bullet (55 gr Sierra Gameking BT Spitzer) and COL.

    I started reloading rifle cartridges with IMR 4895 in a .35 Remington. I also use it for 30-06 and .308. It may not yield the absolute fastest in any given cartridge but it works well for me in a variety of cartridges and with loads of approximately 90% of maximum.

    I do not use loading data from packages of powder.

    Shot shell PSI ranges from 7000 PSI to 11,000 PSI in 12 gauge. As poster 221 points out, the .223 works in the 55,000 plus range which is not as forgiving as shot shell PSI.

    I reload lots of 50 cases of the same head stamp, each in its own plastic box. I keep track of how many times each lot has been reloaded.

    IMO, reloading mixed head stamps and not keeping track of how many times a given case has been loaded/re-sized is dangerous. Every time you re-size and trim, a little metal is lost somewhere in the case. Given enough cycles of re-sizing, you may get a case rupture.

    Ed Ward
     
  15. deercreek

    deercreek Well-Known Member

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    First I have to defend Varget---used it for three years now and love it !!! I think I use 25 grains for my wife's A-Bolt with a 55 Ballisitc Tip.

    Drop a few grains --- AND STOP USING MIXED BRASS !!!
     
  16. Chichay

    Chichay TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    64 special,

    27 gr of Varget for a 55gr bullet is a HOT load! And switching to a CCI450mag primer WILL MAKE IT EVEN HOTTER!!! If you are determined to use Varget, I would suggest backing off 10% (to 24gr) AND using .223 COMMERCIAL BRASS and Winchester Small Rifle primers. Your Remington 700 has a .223 chamber. Firing 5.56x45 brass loaded hot in a .223 chambered gun is a disaster waiting to happen.

    Chichay
     
  17. warpspeed

    warpspeed Member

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    Have you checked the headspace on the rifle ?
     
  18. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

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    If you want to use the 450 mag primers get a Speer load book and it has data for 223 using W748 powder and several others!
     
  19. RobertT

    RobertT Well-Known Member

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    I believe CCI's may be a little harder primer but you still need to work up your loads carefully. Varget powder works well in 223 for heavier bullets but probably not the best for the bullet weight you are shooting. BLC-2 or H335 among a host of other powders are far better choices for your caliber and bullet choice. Also keep in mind that what works well in your friends rifle may be junk in yours. Chichay's comments are right on the money.

    Robert
     
  20. SBray

    SBray Active Member

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    For those of you that are interested, if you go to this site and read the section titled, "Criticism", there is some information about different types of ammo and its knock down capabilities:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

    Also, on the DPMS web site, under "Ammunition Warning" you will find the following:

    Ammunition Warning

    After extensive testing, we have found that only ammunition manufactured to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) specifications is reliable in DPMS rifles. DPMS recommends the use of high quality, domestically produced ammunition for best results and highest accuracy. For plinking and practice, we recommend only domestic, commercially manufactured ammunition. Please note: the use of hand-loaded ammunition voids the factory warranty. The use of all ammunition listed below also voids the warranty.


    We have incurred feeding problems with the following:

    o Israeli ammunition

    o Korean ammunition

    o Chilean ammunition

    o Portugese ammunition


    We have reviewed several reports, from several manufacturers', regarding problems using this ammunition. The problem appears to be the bullet contour and the overall length of the cartridge, which is contacting the rifling before firing. This is creating a gas port pressure and chamber pressure higher than recommended, therefore causing feeding and extraction problems due to the increased bolt carrier velocity. In addition, there is accelerated fatigue on internal parts. There are also indications that brass may be out of spec, which could create an unsafe condition.


    o PMP

    o South African produced surplus
    We have used this ammunition in the past for testing purposes and found the brass is extremely soft and can "flow" into microscopic pores and grooves in the chamber creating "sticky" extraction. This has been reported in many types of rifles, but is more prevalent in semi-automatic weapons.


    o Lacquer Coated Ammunition or Steel-cased, lacquer coated ammunition

    o Wolf

    o Norinco

    o Silver Bear

    o Any steel-cased (coated or non-coated) ammunition


    The problem with this ammunition is that the lacquer coating on the case. As the barrel heats up, the lacquer turns to a soft, varnish substance and upon cool down, becomes very solid and difficult to remove. This effectively creates an undersized chamber and creates understandable problems.
    Your rifle is an investment and it only makes sense to choose quality ammunition for a quality rifle!


    Barrel Information

    To achieve the best results for accuracy you should clean the chamber and bore after every round for the first 25 rounds and then every 10 rounds up to the 100 rounds. It usually takes about 200 rounds per barrel for optimum accuracy. Please keep in mind that our barrels are production barrels not custom barrels. Accuracy is dependant upon many factors such as bullet weight, powder load, rifling twist, rifling lands, operator technique, etc. Our production barrels have achieved anywhere from 1/8" to 1 ½" M.O.A. Obviously, we would hope that every production barrel would shoot 1/8" M.O.A., but with all of the above factors, we cannot guarantee a specific group size.


    Hope this helps,

    Steve
     
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