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209 Primers interchangeable?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by sctrap, Mar 28, 2010.

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  1. sctrap

    sctrap TS Member

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    The Accurate Powders data I have (edition 3.3) treats WIN/REM/CHEDDITE as STD.209 primers to seemingly be interchanged at will. I've been reloading since I was 12 Y.O. (early 70's) and always read and was told this was a NO-NO. But it always seemed to me that primers of like designation (straight 209 for instance)should be the one componet that "equivalent" could apply to. Was my thinking correct way back when or has something changed that I'm not aware of?
     
  2. waverider

    waverider Member

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    What has changed is that the Accurate is not willing to test every combination out there. Most likely what they tested was safe and close. So they most likely posted the hottest load. The problem with Accurates approach is that you may want a 1200 f/s load and end up loading an 1155 f/s load. So unless you have a chrono, you will just be guessing at what you got.

    The golden rule to only use exactly the components listed, still applies if you want to be safe with out a doubt. However, now a days one may not be able to get the exact components. Be it because of cost or availability. If you are going to break the rule, just use common sense and do not load the fastest load listed when substituting one or more components.

    Jason
     
  3. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Are we talking about Accurate or Alliant Powder data?
     
  4. sctrap

    sctrap TS Member

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    Accurate (SOLO 1250)
     
  5. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Years ago there were only two primers to chose from. The Remington 57 Star, (.227"-.228") for Remmy and Peters cases, and the #209, (.240"-.241") for Winchester and Federal cases. And primers were never included in reloading data, it was just assumed you would use the right size primer for the case. It must have been in the 1970's when CCI came out with a #209 that people started talking about how hot they were.. Can't remember when the primer debate started. Wayne
     
  6. OldRemFan

    OldRemFan Member

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    Wayneo

    You are correct when you go back to the 1960's. Hercules 1966 powder guide did not mention different primers in their loading data. They had one page for 12 gauge loads using shot containers which were mentioned by name, and 3 more pages for the rest of the shotgun loads using over powder card wads, cup type wads, buckshot and slug loads. The 1970 Hercules powder guide did have different primers such as the Alcan 220, Rem 57*, Rem 97*, Win 209, Fed 209, etc. listed with various cases. They had also had started to list the wads by name and number. I don't have the powder guides for the years in between the above dates do don't bet the farm on exactly what year the listings changed. You caused, or inspired, me to go back and dig out my old loading data from times gone by.
     
  7. Bvr Tail

    Bvr Tail Well-Known Member

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    Wayne, you seem to have answered a question for me.......that the #57 primers are NOT interchangeable with the modern 209's. Is that correct?

    Danny
     
  8. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    As a rule #57 primers are smaller than #209s. They will fall out of the hull after you load them.

    .015 difference in diameter.
    ( If you have a really strong firing pin ... you could hold them in by using some duct tape!) Just kidding!
     
  9. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Danny, Ahab is right. The Rem 57* will not work (to small) in primer pockets with hulls that use a #209, or #616 primer. However, a Rem 97* is the same size as a #209 but the ballistics of the 97* is that of a Rem 209P. Wayne
     
  10. OldRemFan

    OldRemFan Member

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    Does anyone have data on what the Rem 209T is comparable to?

    Also need the same information on the Alcan 220 max-fire.
     
  11. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    OldRem, Weren't the Rem 209T for the Blue Magic Target Hulls???

    My memory is fading....Alcan 220's were a hot primer used with Flite-max wads and a really slow powder like Alcan AL-7. An early Lyman's Shotshell Handbook might have it. Wayne
     
  12. OldRemFan

    OldRemFan Member

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    Wayneo

    The earlier Lyman manuals do have a few target loads listed using Alcan 220 Max-fire primers with both PB and 7625 powders. I used to use them in heavy hunting loads when I used to do quite a bit of goose hunting 35/40 years ago. I was hoping that someone may have information that placed them in the "pecking order" so to speak, of cold to hot primers. I suspect they may not be as hot as the name indicates as compared to the Fed 209A. I have a friend that has about 5,000 of them, so I thought I would see what I could find out from this group.

    As for the Remington 209T, there is considerable loading information on the Peters Blue magic hulls, however I cannot find any information listing the Rem 209T for that particular hull. For that matter, I have been unable to locate any mention of the Remington 209T in any of the Lyman Shotshell manuals. I suspect they came and went between editions of the Lyman manuals. I think they were actually put on the market some time after the Rem 97* were marketed, but didn't last long due to their physical properties. They were short, had a penchance for hanging up in a primer tube because they would almost turn sideways, and had a large opening that would easily fill up with fine grained powder. I used them with Red dot and Green dot in target loads in the early 70's, but the only information I have on them is what I wrote down in my reloading notes back then.
     
  13. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    The Remington 209T was for the Blue Magics successor and lookalike Peters Target Load, "with new hotter primer". It was hotter than the Blue Magics' *97. Some suspected Remington 209T production was outsourced to Federal, and that in fact it was a Federal 209 in Remington clothes. I certainly looked like a Federal 209, and loading data for it was very similar to Federal 209 data.
     
  14. OldRemFan

    OldRemFan Member

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    The picture shows the Remington 209T on the right. The primer on the left is the Remington 97* for comparison.

    I guess I have never seen any 209 primers that looked like the Remington 209T in my many years of reloading.

    Still have a thousand of them.


    [​IMG]
     
  15. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Thanks for the picture OldRemFan. Your picture doesn't jive with my memory of the Remington 209T. I remember it as gold colored. Memories fib. I guess I'll have to go digging through my stash of old shells and see if I can find a Peters Target Load with a 209T primer. But how to tell a Peters Target Load from a Blue magic will be tough.

    Now another question. There was a 209T primer, and a different primer called the 209 Target. One was made for the Federal Champion II hull, the other for the Peters Target Load (Blue Magic lookalike). Do I have them confused?
     
  16. OldRemFan

    OldRemFan Member

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    Mrskeet410

    I can't answer your question. It is, and always has been, my understanding that the Rem 209T and Remington 209 target are one and the same, with the T on the end of the 209 being taken from the word target. Some claim that the Blue magic shells were loaded with Rem 97* primers and the Peters target shells were loaded with a Rem 209 which supposedly is an entirely different primer from the 209T. I can believe they used 97* in the Blue magic loads, but I can't find any supporting data that there was yet another different Rem 209 primer being used or on the market at that time, other than the Rem 209T (target primer), and in later years the 209P.

    I have tried to get information from Remington regarding the 209T, but the answer I got back didn't fit the question, and had nothing to do with Remington 209T primers. I do know that in 1972 when Remington introduced their new RXP case they were loaded with 97* primers.

    I did just go back and look at some old Remington Sporting Firearms and ammunition catalogs from the mid 70's. They did mention for the first time,in the 1974 catalog, the use of both 97* and Rem 209 Target primers in the RXP loads, again the same general statement in the 1975 catalog of both primers being used, and in the 1978 catalog no mention of what primers were being used.
     
  17. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Well I had to go out to the shed to see if I could find when primers were added to reloading data. I've got a Sullivan Arms manual from the mid to late sixties. Sullivan Arms made the Sacork, Sacdome, and other popular wads. I added a link to a 1967 Handloaders magazine article, that shows CCI 109, and Remington 69* primers for 20 gauge. Look at some of the wad pressures we used. Wayne


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
     
  18. OldRemFan

    OldRemFan Member

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    Yea, I have some similar stuff. I still have my old Hercules powder guide from 1966. Life was a lot less complicated then. This is the total information provided, at that time, by Hercules if you were using one piece wads.




    [​IMG]
     
  19. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Very nice, glad to see things like Red and Green dot have not changed over the years. Except they are cleaner burning. Wayne
     
  20. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Interesting. Help my memory. What is (was) the difference between the Rem 69* and the Rem 57*?

    I believe the Remington 209P (and later 209 STS) is basically a covered version of their 97*. The primer in the Peters Target Load (209T or 209 target?) was stronger.

    Anybody remember what primer Federal loaded in their Champion II ammo?
     
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