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2009 Grand American/Observation

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Joe Woods, Aug 18, 2009.

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  1. Joe Woods

    Joe Woods Well-Known Member

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    Note:
    Not a lot of shooters playing the Money options at this years Grand Ameican.


    Joe Woods/Ontario
     
  2. Maytag

    Maytag TS Member

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    When I looked at the payouts for the GAH event #23, the payouts seemed waaayyy low from the last couple of years at Vandalia.
     
  3. RLC323

    RLC323 Member

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    I can not recall the 50 options ever paying less. Some played the lewis. Most played nothing.
     
  4. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the "recession" is starting to/really hitting some shooter's spending on discretionary items???? Ya think...
     
  5. texasaggie2000

    texasaggie2000 Member

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    I agree with bigdogtx, but I also think you have to look at the total pool, not the payouts. Is it that the pools are down or that they are being split more ways? I am sure someone with the historical data will be along to enlighten me.
     
  6. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    It's an attitudinal thing. Most of we casual shooters have seen the money winning chances dwindle down. Many would probably play more money if the perception that we are just feeding the greats in the game. The divide between the top guns and the rest of us has widened greater than ever.

    This perception has turned into a habit for most. "I'll just shoot the targets." They say it without even thinking or studying the program. We need to segregate the top dogs from the general population of shooters.
     
  7. texasaggie2000

    texasaggie2000 Member

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    Barry,

    I have trouble seeing how the top guns keep people from playing their class or yardage purses if they are not on the 27 or AA.

    I also see the majority of people I shoot with not play the options at smaller shoots either when there is no pro in sight.

    I agree with you, it is attitudinal, I just think it has more to do with factors other than having to compete with the "pros."
     
  8. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    Well said Tex. J.W.
     
  9. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    tex, If my assessment about the cause of the money draught is only a partial reason, then what do you think are the other factors that are causing it?
     
  10. texasaggie2000

    texasaggie2000 Member

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    Barry,

    I hate it when I let discussions like this pull me offsides! You have been at this much longer than I have, so I concede...you are probably correct.

    I just fail to see why option playing is down across the board, in categories that pros don't shoot in. I don't understand how the calcuttas at the shoots near me are so small when there are no pros around. I have shot with plenty of folks capable of breaking good scores, yet they just don't play the options. I am not sure if this is due to economic reasons or that the gamble in trapshooters is gone.

    For what it is worth, it appears to me that the same thing happens in sporting clays. Lots of good shooters, no body playing the options. At the Texas state sporting clay shoot there were very few options offered and it appeared that most people passed on them.

    Any thoughts on why shoots without pros still get very few people to play the options?
     
  11. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    It has been my experience that shoots where the pros do not attend are usually much smaller. There is simply not that many people there, so playing the options has much less of a payback.
     
  12. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Tex. I understand your confusion about folks not playing purses even when there is no pro competition. Not playing the money has become a habit. What's important to focus on is why this phenomenon has happened and then fix it.

    By far the greatest number of handicap shooters are the long yardage shooters. The proficiency gap between the pros' and the average 27 yd. shooter is the best example of what I'm talking about and that gap is growing ever wider. The same is true between the AA-97.5% and the AA-99.5% shooters in singles. The ATA invented the AAA class to segregate the pros' from the average AA shooter in both singles and doubles. Why can't they segregate them in handicap?
     
  13. texasaggie2000

    texasaggie2000 Member

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    Mark,

    Seems like we have joined two threads...

    Smaller shoots would have smaller pools...make sense to me. But in that case, I would have thought there would have more money in the option pools at the Grand for the lower classes (since there were so many shooters at this large shoot), and yet they seemed pretty small to me (relative to size of the shoot).

    It appears to me that in event #18 (ATA Clay Target Championship) at the Grand total A class payouts on the 200 class purse option totaled $600 which would be 30 shooters playing this option(at $20 per participant). This is an option that no pro had a shot at, yet only 30 folks played it (I concede, I have no idea how many A class shooters shot the event and it is possible it was 30, in which a 100% participation rate was acheived). Similar, it appears that in event #23 (Handicap Championship) only 68 folks played the yardage purse for 23-24 yards, another non-pro area (I chose this yardage to exclude the penalty yardage folks in 25).

    Perhaps you consider these large numbers of participants, and I really wish I knew the % of shooters in each yardage group and class they played these options, but it seems to me that the majority of the shooters (especially in singles) played no options.

    What are your thoughts on why this is?

    Lastly, I don't think I can make money in this game so that is not my point. I just see a lot of folks talking about not playing options or not shooting registered targets due to the "pro" effect, and I guess I just don't see their logic.
     
  14. JimmyP

    JimmyP TS Member

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    TexasAggie, It seems you have a handle on reading the RJ Stuart website. Go there and check the winning scores in the HAA and HOA for the classes. You will see composite scores that are unbelievable for those class shooters. I have studied them and realize that my chances of winning option purses are not very good. My wife and I both shoot so I double my expense. The first year we went to the Grand we spent 1.5 times as much on options as we did in entries. We didn't come close to breaking even. When you have a D class shooter with a 95 composite average what does that tell you? So I just put my option money toward more targets and maybe one day I will be good enough to believe I have a chance to win a little. LOL


    Jimmy
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Many shooters go to a shoot to have fun, not to win money. Gambling is not a great thrill for everyone. My greatest shooting expense is the money that I don't make when I am at a shoot rather than in my office working. If I were after money, I would stay home and work.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. JOND

    JOND TS Member

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    Sandbaggers? JOND
     
  17. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    My friend plays the options. When he shoots a good score (say 96 in Caps) he moans about how much missing that one bird for a 97 cost him. If he shoots a very good score (say 97 in Caps) he thinks about how much he "Lost" by not shooting a 98. He played quite a few options, and recouped about 65% of his money while shooting good scores during the Grand. I suspect many others have found that playing the options does not provide a reasonable return and have stopped.


    My enjoyment comes from achieving a good score for me. Like Pat, I would make more money by staying home but I elect to shoot to have fun. I managed to get a punch at the Grand and was very happy with my score. I did not play the options but I had a very good time in spite of "leaving money on the table".


    I also agree that many would like to play the options but cannot afford to. Do they shoot half (or fewer) events or put the money for options toward shooting more targets? I think it is better for the sport to have more targets shot than to redistribute the wealth.


    Don Verna
     
  18. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    From 1966 when I started shooting registered targets until 1981 when I stopped for 19 years I played the money.


    When I resumed shooting in 2000 I picked up where I left off which is playing the money. Once I shot several scores that would have paid well previously and saw the payouts I've almost completely stopped playing the money.


    The reason is the easier target presentation has resulted in higher scores which resulted in the money pool being chopped up to the point where there is very little return on your money for a lot of risk.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  19. Clay Addict

    Clay Addict Member

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    I don't understand some of the complaints. I played the options and received back 90% of my initial entry fees. Play the money and shoot well. My 2 week vacation cost much less because of the check I got on Saturday. So many people want to analyze every aspect of the game. I went in, punched the options and wrote a check. I missed several opportunities to make more money but I am happy with 90% return on my "investment". I was out gas, food, shells, peach ice cream, camp site, some gun work, and 10% of the event fees and option costs. Play the money in the big shoots and help to make it better, don't sit and cry about how it was. Grab hold of now and remember then, but don't think to hard or it might get in the way of hitting that little orange bird.
    See ya all next year,
    CA
     
  20. Joe McGorman

    Joe McGorman TS Member

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    I remember a few years ago on this site a past All-American stating that back in the seventies and eighties you could buy a $300 gun and win $10,000, but now everybody spends $10,000 on a gun so they can win $300 on the options.

    I think it's a combination of less shooters, less disposable income for options(10k gun is an investment), and less sponsors(thinking back to when Budwieser was sponsoring alot of handicap events).

    Joe McGorman

    P.S I still remember back in the 90's at Jaqua's in Findlay, Ohio they would have 60 to 70 squads for the big handicap events and everybody their would play the options. I would literally wet my pants when I seen Brad Dysinger, David McKinney, Merle Decker and Sweet Lou Morgan on the line. OOPS I have to go to the bathroom.
     
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