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2008 S/W Grand Targets

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by dickotto, Apr 21, 2008.

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  1. dickotto

    dickotto TS Member

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    I have heard some stories about extremely hard targets shot in the early days of the Southwest Grand. One person reported "you could nearly turn them end over end and yet not break them". In checking the results on Stuart's website, it seemed that the winning scores were a little low. The same person said that they received another load of targets on Wed. and those seemed to be much easier to break.
    If you were there and would like to comment, please do.
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Dick, I was told:

    1: They were throwing international targets. I found this unlikely because they cost more and as I walked Kyra at the 50-yard stake in the morning, I never saw one. Not one.

    2. There were many with five holes in them. I didn't look too hard but didn't see any with multiple holes in them. When I told this to one of the story-tellers, I was informed that they had all been picked up.

    3. There was 15% less pitch in them, to save money. Since pitch is a binder, I asked if low-pitch targets shouldn't break easier, not harder? Who determined the 15% figure? No one knew.

    4. Someone had a machine to test target breakability. Since all the previous claims seemed to be pure BS, this caught my attention, You see, I'd done a bit of the myself. As I pursued the story, it changed from an inclined plane with a target sliding down it to someone just dropping targets, apparently.

    5. I was asked to tell the difference in sound between two new and two old targets being clicked together, one sound being more "hollow." I really couldn't tell, though there may have been a difference. I did not do the obvious test, but should have.

    Maybe they were harder, I don't know, but I didn't think any of the "evidence" existed and nothing, I repeat, nothing was ever demonstrated to me, and I did my very best to hunt it down.

    I was, however reminded of two previous such "events."

    The targets at some Grand varied by some big weight percentage as everyone was told, even by a then-member of the EC. The figures quoted were impossible, but the outcome was the present ATA rule which was based on pure nonsense and is itself pure nonsense.

    Nebraska shooter MM sent two brands of targets to a so-called testing lab in Omaha. The resulting report actually made it into the EC minutes one spring.

    Anybody, I mean anybody, reading that report should have smelled a rat since once again, what was claimed was just impossible. I wrote a letter of protest to the lab and the report was retracted virtually in its entirety. For example, one of the "tests" was of density using Archimedes' method and they didn't even know how to do that. The lab replied that they "didn't know where the numbers came from" (didn't they keep notebooks/records?) and the personnel doing the test "no longer worked for them."

    As completely worthless as that lab's tests were, they were better than anything I heard about at the SW Grand.

    Neil
     
  3. JimmyP

    JimmyP TS Member

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    Dick, I got there Wed. night so I can't tell you about anything before that. I, like Neil, heard all kinds of stories and theories. My theory is that the wind was so variable that no one could get a good run going. The wind would change directions between shots and make it nearly impossible to have the same hold point and gun movement from target to target. The really good shooters were down a little and the rest of us were down a lot on scores, so I think experienced shooters seemed to fair better than the rest. The scores did come up Sat. and Sunday as the wind slowed down. All in all they did a great job on setting the best targets I have seen in those conditions and my hat is off to those involved. My 2 pennies which doesn't count for much. LOL

    Jimmy
     
  4. Dennisw

    Dennisw Member

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    So I guess you should have used 7 1/2s...............
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Zard, while I have no doubt there were many targets at CC with a dozen holes in them, I have to ask if you actually _saw_ one. Did you see any with six? Two?

    Neil
     
  6. hairy

    hairy TS Member

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    Lots of ways to keep the "let's throw tougher targets" crowd happy.

    Targets that are more difficult to break.

    Worn handset traps.

    Worn handset traps with phono pulls so the loaders get their fingers nipped a few times.

    Weather.

    I wasn't there, so I don't know if any of the above apply, but the scores do look lower.

    Looks like the 27 yard crowd still won.
     
  7. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    I was there for every event, Wednesday morning through Sunday afternoon. My scores were terrible, but I can't blame it on the hardness of the targets. I just sucked. In 500 singles targets I had one 25 straight, and a low score of 81. I'd be going along hitting them hard and the wheels would fall off. In doubles, the targets were often very inconsistent from shot to shot, with the first target varying as much as 10 degrees in horizontal direction, and three feet at ten yards in altitude. I attribute that to inexperienced setters, hand set traps, and a fast pace on the squad. Some days the winds were challenging, some days they were not a factor. In handicap I'd be rolling along crushing the targets, and then miss two or three on the next post. The low straightaways were just eating me up. I'm very discouraged with my shooting right now, and will give it a rest for a while.
     
  8. romie

    romie Active Member

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    Pocatello
    I shot some low targets on the 16 saturday and dropped 15 the first 100 then raised my hold point the next 200 and only dropped 3 &5.Try it it may help you.
    I am not an expert..Monty
     
  9. Pride Engineer

    Pride Engineer Member

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    I was there for and shot every event including the preliminary weekend. The so called offending targets were pulled from the houses by midweek and replaced with a fresh batch that arrived during the week. Scores did improve after that, quite dramatically in the singles events. I did have someone demonstrate the sound test Neil refered to and I could in fact hear a difference quite clearly. I was asked to close my eyes and listen. The targets were then clinked togeather and I could discern a distinct difference. I also was shown several targets that had as many as four hits on them without breaking. Our squad did notice an unusually high number of dusted targets before the targets were switched. After the switch, we only counted one on a event of 100 targets with our squad being a full five persons. Previously, we would have four or five per trap of 25. There were days early where there were only two hundreds in the singles event. At a satellite grand, this is low.

    Overall the scores were low even after the switch of targets but not as bad. I personally believe this was due to the handset traps and the fact that handsets with voice pulls are much faster delivering targets and tend to jump out quicker then our eye is used to. This can cause a shooter to start to jump at the target. They plan to soon have Pat traps on the fields making this problem a non-factor for next years SW Grand. This is a great facility and they run a good shoot. I will be there next year to again enjoy the SW Grand and the San Antonio area.
     
  10. IMR 7625

    IMR 7625 Member

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    JUST A MENTAL GAME SOME PEOPLE PLAY WITH OTHERS
     
  11. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    I was not there, so I do not have 1st hand knowledge...

    BUT...

    If the targets were "harder" meaning "more difficult" and not "harder to break", then shouldn't the short to mid yardage shooters get more punches? At least, that is what the 3-hole zealots always say...

    Where are they now?

    If you make the game more difficult, then the better shooters will win more, not less. As 100 golfers if "Tiger-proofing" a course (i.e. making it longer) makes it harder on Tiger ot the rest of the field. 90+ of them will tell you the rest of the field.

    IMR -- you hit the nail right on the head. When you get to an A or B level in the this game, it quickly becomes 90%+ mental. Ranks right up there with telling the guy (or gal) you are shooting off with, "Don't miss any!"

    John
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me most posting on the low scores at the SWGA are making what's called, "WAGs", so I will also.

    Neil's # 4 above. The way the tests were conducted, if at all, is junk science or wishful thinking at best. I feel there's a way to test such targets but it isn't by sound or sliding a clay down an incline plate! More on that in later months.

    From hairy's post above.


    "Targets that are more difficult to break." What may cause this, target composition, RPMs on said clay or handsets? Possibly a combination of all but I suspect worn rubber inserts on the throwing arm and a lack of RPMs necessary to throw a stable breakable target.

    "Worn handset traps." Maintenance on these traps include changing out the rubber insert that grips the clay to spin it at the proper RPMs for breakability? Worn out inserts get hard and slick and can't grip the targets edge to give it spin.

    "Worn handset traps with phono pulls so the loaders get their fingers nipped a few times." How true!! When that does happen, what does that do to the quality of properly set clays on the throwing arm? It's all downhill from there and I say that from my experience of setting targets for a fast shooting squad!!!



    Pocatello's first hand experience there.



    "In doubles, the targets were often very inconsistent from shot to shot, with the first target varying as much as 10 degrees in horizontal direction, and three feet at ten yards in altitude. I attribute that to inexperienced setters, hand set traps, and a fast pace on the squad." With today's shooters calling almost instantly for auto-trap targets, this doesn't come as any big surprise to me with in-experienced kids loading older hand-sets!! Some probably have never seen such traps prior?



    John,

    "If the targets were "harder" meaning "more difficult" and not "harder to break", then shouldn't the short to mid yardage shooters get more punches? At least, that is what the 3-hole zealots always say..." John, using your circumstances and assumptions, the more experienced shooters (with more attending) will prevail at the largest turnouts. The better new shooters entering the game today don't stay at short yardage very long. Maybe that's a good thing for higher target counts, who knows? Hap
     
  13. Pride Engineer

    Pride Engineer Member

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    One of my friends was a target setter at the shoot. It appeared
    to him and me that the "bad" targets were actually softer then normal targets. Therefore the shot would pass through without the target shattering. The rubbers on the throwing arms I'm told were in excellent shape, they were regularily sanded to improve the grip on the target and provide the best "spin" on the target.

    The traps were maintained well according to my friend who set the targets. It was his feeling the trap mechanic at the NSSC knows his stuff on these machines. As for the setters getting their fingers nipped, you bet that happened. There were actually some injuries and I'm sure that's why the presentation was not equal to Pat traps early or late in the week. However, the scores did improve after the targets were switched to the new shipment.

    Mark Zauhar
     
  14. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    My recollection was that the specification for targets was 5 hits to break them 95% of the time. This would mean that you need 8 hits to break the target 99% of the time. So it seems perfectly reasonable to find 1 target per 100 with up to 8 holes without breaking.

    -Aaron
     
  15. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Jerry,

    Whats that sucking sound I hear, are you running for the BOD ..? lol ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  16. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The first batch of targets that were used have been tested and found to be softer than a normal target. They were replaced with a new shipment of targets on Wednesday. The new batch of targets were also tested and found to be of normal hardness. The first batch of targets due to their softness could withstand multiple pellet hits without coming apart. HMB
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mark, regarding the "ring test" of the difference between targets. I'm guessing both of us saw and heard the same pair of targets, one called, for convenience, "Saturday-Monday, and the other "Monday plus."

    The first thing we both noticed, I hope, was that the Saturday-Monday pair appeared faded. Ok, maybe they were painted that way, but they looked like they had been sitting out in the sun for a while, though both of us were told, again I surmise, that they were fresh.

    So there we both sit there listening. You said there was a difference in the sound each differing pair made when clinked together and I said there might have been and agree that there probably was, though I didn't hear it every time by far.

    So what kind of evidence was that, remembering that I wrote here that I didn't see any worthy of the name?

    I called it worthless, and here's why:

    1) No one I have ever heard of has related the sound of targets clicked together to their breakability.

    2) No one I have ever heard of has ever quantified the range of sounds emitted by clicking pairs of targets from the same box. Do we know if one pair may sound "hollow" while the next pair does not? What if variability in sound is routine, not unusual? And which is it?

    3) No one I have ever heard of has ever studied the effect of throwing a target and letting it hit the ground and perhaps crack (or not) on the sound it makes when hit by another target, which itself may be cracked or not.

    I said I had not done the obvious experiment. Here it is: Take ten pairs of targets from each of two cases. Click then together, pair to pair, and have a listener- whose back is turned so he or she cannot see the targets - say whether the two tested pairs are the same or different. A score of 9 of 10 right (approximately) would indicate that two sets of targets sounded different.

    The test we both saw is so far, far from this reasonable standard, the one anyone should use if he wants the truth not confirmation of some personal theory, that what we saw and heard is no value from an evidentiary point of view.

    Neil
     
  18. MXSHOOTER

    MXSHOOTER TS Member

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    I shot monday thru sunday, heard all the rumors, never found anyone that could tell me what rule book to find the infamous break test, although they all swore it was there. For me personally, every target I hit, broke. Targets were trickey with the wind and wore out hand set traps. I would quess this had more to do with low scores than any thing else.
     
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