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2 HOLE VS 3 HOLE REVISITED AT LAS VEGAS FALL HAND.

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by LV Trapshooting Park, Oct 9, 2008.

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  1. LV Trapshooting Park

    LV Trapshooting Park TS Member

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    No hard conclusions here, just information presented that you can make from it what you will. At our recent Fall Handicap, we commenced with a 3-hole angle event just for fun (non-registered) to kick off the program. Target speed was set right at 43mph, and height of 10'. Conditions were about perfect, calm, sunny & warm. There was 58 shooters in the event, and 50 of these also shot the handicap the following day, so thought we would compare their scores. In the 3-hole event, these 50 shooters averaged 88.30. In the next handicap the following day (same time of day, same conditions, etc) the angle setting was put back to 2-hole, but speed and height remained the same. This same group of 50 averaged 91.16. Almost a 3 point jump in average, with the only variable being the slightly wider angle in the first event. The winning scores in the 1st event were 95s & 94s, evenly split between 27 and non-27yd shooters. In the second event, the top score was a 100 straight, and 3 99s, all by 27yd shooters.

    In the past there has been much discussion here on what makes the most difference; angle or speed. In this case, at least on these two days, I would have to conclude that angle is the real difference. My own shooting experience in the past would result in this same conclusion as well.


    Steve Carmichael

    Las Vegas Gun Club
     
  2. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I think your results were to be expected. We all know that on windy days the short yardage shooters gain an advantage due to the physical conditions creating variables which are magnified at longer yardages and which can only be partially overcome by the skill and experience of the good, longer yard shooters.

    Increasing the angles had the same effect. However, if they shot 3 hole regularly, the higher skilled, long yardage shooters would quickly learn to shoot the wider angles more consistantly and consequently, while they may shoot 97s and 98s rather than 99s & 100s, they would still outclass the shorter yardages shooters.

    Remember, shorter yardage shooters never master their yardage because they keep moving back with punches. Once on the 27, the better shooters eventually master that yardage. And that kids is why a master class is needed as opposed to more concrete, lighter loads or increased angles.
     
  3. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Steve..Steve....Steve...... Haven't you been monitoring these threads at all over the past year? ... It's a foregone conclusion that going back to the 3 hole 50 yard target won't make a bit of difference in the results of handicap being more equal to all shooters. We have been told, and led to believe that the 27 yard shooters will always win if we did that. What you discovered at your shoot must have been a fluke. The lower scores, and more even distribution of yardage winners in the first event flies in the very face of everything we have been told, and shown in graphs, etc. by the ATA. Surely you must have missed something..........Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  4. LV Trapshooting Park

    LV Trapshooting Park TS Member

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  5. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Blasphemy, Blasphemy, Blasphemy


    You are surely going to trapshooting hell unless you recant.


    Seriously good job. You gave the shooters an option and a peek at how shoots use to be.


    Good for you.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  6. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    One shoot does not make a scientific study. However, I appreciate Mr. Carmichael's experiment and would like to see more.

    I've often wondered if the combination of a 48yd.(or equivalent) and a three hole angle targets wouldn't be a good thing for the sport. It would be interesting to experiment with that formula, as well.

    It would also be interesting to track a set sample of shooters over say 3-4 thousand targets split between singles and handicap for a couple days using a certain target setting. Then repeat using other settings.

    I would think that the ATA and the "Trap & Field" would or should be interested in this kind of experiment. I think the shooters/readers would like this as well.

    Barry Roach
     
  7. trap72

    trap72 Member

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    THREE(3) HOLE SHOULD BE THE REQUIREMENT!
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Interesting data that deserves some analysis. First, I would ask if the averages of all shooters for both days are the same or different. I believe you know that you can't compare raw averages. A simple T-test at 95% and 99% would answer that question. Next, your data deserves to be compared by yardage groups (short, middle and long). It might be possible to use this data to gain a little insight into the 2 v. 3 hole question.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Wilma Harris

    Wilma Harris TS Member

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    Ireland it doesn't matter how the data is filtered, compared, tilted, blended, or in anyway analized, you will never accept a return to the spread and speed of the old 3 hole target. So like Hussein Obama and the surge, just admit it.
     
  10. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Can someone explain to me how to set a 3-hole Doubles target. I am unable to understand how this is possible.

    Jerry, I believe the rulebook once said targets shall be no less than a straightaway from posts one and five. I did not change the rules. Am I wrong!!
     
  11. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    Steve, +1 on your experiment! I am of the opinion that the 3-hole should be standard with a minimum of 50 yds.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  12. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    oleolliedawg, just give them a mix but allowing trap to oscilate the pairs.
     
  13. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    I have a question, did the shooters know the first set were 3 hole? Could there be some "Oh crap, these are going to be tough, then they are"
     
  14. motrap

    motrap Member

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    Steve ...... Not certain about priority of relevance, but I would like to know ..........

    Were the shooters aware of the two settings prior to shooting?

    Also ....... to those that continuously quote that any club may set 3, or even 4 hole targets if they think that is better ........ When a club throws registered targets the scores will become part of the shooters registered average (maybe for All-American standing), therefore ......... even if the tougher targets would be better for a single shoot, the inclusion of the scores into their yearly averages would have a detrimental effect on a State or National basis, when compared to their competition who shot only wimpy targets .......

    ...... Even [if] most shooters would rather that the ATA would require, and that ALL CLUBS would throw 3 hole, 50 yard targets ......... they do not want to hinder their own average if ALL SHOOTERS do not shoot the more challenging targets. I know the purveyors of this thought know they are being disingenuous by stating this over and over ......... I guess there is no getting around "spin" ........ it's the way of our society now-a-days .........

    Along the same lines ...... it seems that a benefit to older shooters would be to change the [SV] Category to age 70-75 and the addition of a [SSV] Super Senior Vet Category ages 75 & Up ...... (possibly while were doing it, add [Sub-Vt] ages 60-65) ...... and although it/these would not be prohibited currently by the ATA, unless the ATA embraces and institutes these Categories, it/they will conflict with AA points at larger shoots .......

    for the good of trap ......... Rudy
     
  15. Rod Ritter

    Rod Ritter TS Member

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    Steve has most interesting results.

    If I could have designed an experiment I would have a group of shooters (the same shooters) shoot the same time of day, under the same enviroment (weather conditions)on the same range.

    Wait ...... that is what happened.

    Steve's data is about as conclusive as any you and I will ever have.

    Was Jerry Hauser right? Narrower angles do favor the long yardage boys? Is equalizing the "advantage" of our current crop of long yardage super stars as simple spreading out the targets? It would certainly seem so.

    Steve's experiment is as about as clearly defined as you can get. Pat Ireland's comment is potentiall worthwhile.

    Steve ....... is it possible to get the raw data from the two events? I'll play the Pat Ireland game of runnning the data through the various statistical programs.

    Rod Ritter
    520-533-4643
    520-458-9534
    swilcox3@mindspring.com
     
  16. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Folks,

    Changing flight angles and speed will not effect a longterm solution if you think the problem is the guys who have mastered the 27 yard line and can shoot 98s, 99s & 100s regularly. They will quickly master the wider angles as well.

    Distance is the real killer and we can't economically add concrete just to disadvantage less than 5% of the 27 yard shooters to bring them back on to a level playing field.
     
  17. Rod Ritter

    Rod Ritter TS Member

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    Mr. JBBrooks,
    You statement that the long yardage boys will quickly master the greater angles is interesting.

    My question to you is ....... why didn't they do it last time?
    V/R
    Rod Ritter
     
  18. Rvator97

    Rvator97 TS Member

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    mastered the 27.....? Even the very very best shoot 100 maybe once a yr, on the avg.
     
  19. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Mr. Brooks - I believe the yardage increase to 29 was discussed at the BoD meeting at the Grand. No changes were made.

    I personally thank Steve to the experiment. I have agree with his thinking for years. Problem is our older BoD members, and a few top shooters that want to keep their averages high. - Jim
     
  20. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    While I thank Steve for the test and find it quite interesting, I'm kind'a in the ball park with the ones scrunching their noses with the certainty of data. First, the sun was likely off to the side in the morning and more to the back in the afternoon, eh? Next, all bodies were awake and in the groove more by the afternoon, eh? I'd like to see the test reversed on a following day and I also wonder at how the variations are just about typical of two events just like taking a group of shots over my chronograph and seeing the extreme spread. Yeah, it should be done over several days or events or reverse order. Another point is that with time, might not shooters, marginal and great, each improve their averages with 3 holers being the norm?....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
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