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2 hole vs. 3 hole angle

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by G-12, Aug 25, 2008.

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  1. G-12

    G-12 TS Member

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    Can someone please explain the difference between a 2 hole and a 3 hole angle trap? Thanks, Ben
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The three hole is about four or five degrees wider on each side. The effect, when hand-sets were new, was to move the maximum right angle from 3 1/2 feet to the right of station one to a straight-away from station one. The increasing slop in the system with wear widened both these ideals.

    The shooting effects were three:

    1. Every now and then, you got a wider angle

    2. Even though it only every now and then, you had to be ready for it all the time.

    3. In the straightaway-from-one-and-five year of 1996, the handicap averages of the top 40 shooters (all 27-yarders) were typically decreased by about half a bird.

    Neil
     
  3. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Blather forthcoming...
     
  4. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Neil


    Maybe G-12 would like to know if the three hole target only thrown for one year??



    Buzz you were right.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  5. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    Neil,

    A half of a percent or even a full percent of an average is not much. A lot of posters on this site do not recall those days. It is safe to say that the high average shooters would probably gain that average back in two to three years through practice and shooting 30,000 registered targets.

    James
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- You omitted one effect of the wider angles. If the trap oscillates at the same speed but over a wider angle, the total number of angle targets will be increased and the number of straight away targets will be decreased.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    10' to the right & left of what is being thrown now.

    Curt
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Curt, ten feet right & left at 50 yards? Or where?

    Pat, yes. An interesting point. Past-President Crausbay has also offered an interesting speculation regarding the distribution of angles of handsets vs PATs. I tried to test it in San Antonio but found it can't be done in a naturalistic setting and will probably have to be done in a lab or equivalent. While I did not put a lot of stock in it at first, I'm beginning to think there may be something to it.

    Neil
     
  9. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    I need to understand this whole 2-hole vs. 3-hole conversation that continues to raise its head.

    • Is the popular consensus that trap shooting has become too easy, and the majority of shooters would like to make the game of trap harder for some reason?<br>
    • Does the common shooter believe that by going to a 3-hole target will make him more competitive in relation to his contemporaries?<br>
    • Since shoot-off targets are not registered maybe this would be a way to go to the next level to shorten the length of shoot-offs?<br>
    o Shoot 2-hole targets for singles and handicap events<br>
    o All ties will be shot-off with 3-hole targets for singles<br>
    o Handicap shoot-offs would remain as is
    Thoughts, criticisms, or general execution of the messenger?


    Ronbo
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    • Is the popular consensus that trap shooting has become too easy, and the majority of shooters would like to make the game of trap harder for some reason?

    No, it's plenty hard for everyone I know.

    • Does the common shooter believe that by going to a 3-hole target will make him more competitive in relation to his contemporaries?

    Only if they also believe in toothfaries

    • Since shoot-off targets are not registered maybe this would be a way to go to the next level to shorten the length of shoot-offs?

    Few actually in shoot-offs - of which I think there are few here - say they are too long.

    o Shoot 2-hole targets for singles and handicap events

    True only if the actual angles thrown by - for example - PAT traps have been checked not only in still air but also under concurrent wind conditions. Remember, when PATs came the windage lever disappeared. Since that is not done, many, many three-hole-equivalent angle targets are thrown in many events.

    o All ties will be shot-off with 3-hole targets for singles

    Few actually in shoot-offs - of which I think there are few here - say they are too long. The participants can agree to this change. If they do, OK. So what's the problem?

    Neil
     
  11. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    The only legitimate reason for going back to the 3-hole is because that was the way the game was designed and played long before many of us knew the meaning of the word "TRAP"!!
     
  12. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    About 20 years ago, at least in Indiana, a fair # of clubs threw 2 hole targets all the time. This increased their attendance due to people shooting high scores at those clubs. Shooters would then go to a club that was throwing 3 holes and for the most part fall flat on their faces. While the angles looked extremely hard and fast, it was because of seeing so many #2 hole targets. As always, the best had little trouble adapting from #2 to #3 and as Neil pointed out, only suffered .5 % lower average. They still won as many shoots, lets face it if you could throw a # 6 hole those same people would still win. I like 3 hole, I think I have a better chance by shooting them than if I went back & forth.
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    oleolliedawg- Go back to the way the game was designed? Are you talking about glass balls or the second modification of the game when the trap was cocked with an iron pipe at the 30 yard line. What about the handle on the back of the old traps that allowed the trap boy to change the angle. Do you remember when trap boys got tips from shooters and the best tippers got the best targets?
    Should we go back to the days when your score was 95% dependent on your shooting ability and 5% dependent on how well the kid cocking the trap at 30 yards did his job and how well the other kid who loaded the trap did his job.

    Remind me someday and I will post some now embarrassing, but true stories about how the game was designed and played in 1955. I know well a trap boy who was instructed to make certain that a grumpy shooter who was also the best shot would never shoot a good score at one club. And, he never did.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. Pony Keg

    Pony Keg TS Member

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    I swear I had nothing to do with this thread. However, I have to put two cents in again.

    I think we need to STOP talking about the 2 or 3 hole target and redefine the definition of the target angles to read that the maximum angle will be a straight away from post one and a straight away from post 5. I do not see how that should be a problem since you have to shoot a straight away from posts 2,3,&4 respectivly.

    Target speed is a big deal as well. I believe that Mr. Winston made sure that the target speeds were a consistant 42mph at the Grand. Hats off to him.

    Thanks Again,

    Jeff Warren
     
  15. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    PAT!! You should be ashamed of yourself. I never would have believed that you would partake in such chicanery. You obviously were not tipped sufficently in your opinion. LOL. Bob
     
  16. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    John T.

    I disagree with the two hole shooters would fall flat on their face when they shot a club that threw three hole targets.

    I for many years shot at a club who belived in three hole targets then and still do today. It is great to shoot against them when they shoot at clubs that throw two hole targets. Often times they have little to no confidence and it compounds a problem. When I have confidence from my home club and venture to other clubs that are tuff, I tend to do very well. Why is that?

    It is because of confidence. If you were breaking good scores before you went to a club that is throwing three hole targets, wind blowing, poor background, bad voice calls, etc, then your confidence helps more than you are giving credit for.

    Firm believer confidence is far more powerful than practicing on three hole targets. I wonder if one would gain more confidence if he shot one hole targets all the time before he ventured to a harder club.

    James
     
  17. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Well Pat, since I've only been shooting since 1963 I wouldn't remember those old pull traps you are referring to. We also had flush toilets up here then. I do remember what hole we kept our traps in.

    I do not have any experience shooting glass balls either but I was real good on beer cans and bottles way back then-do you!!
     
  18. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Neither Neil or Pat have not been able to explain why there were so many more non-27 yard shooters listed in the top 100 handicap average each year when the 3-hole target was the norm.


    It make me wonder what Neil basis his statement that going to a 3-hole target would not make the common shooter more competitive.


    The following data taken from the average books clearly shows the "common shooter" was much more competitive in handicap during the 3-hole period than today.

    The format is Year---# of non-27 yard shooters in the top 100 handicap averages.


    1972--- 86


    1973--- 54


    1974--- 55


    1975--- 45


    1976--- 18


    1978--- 38


    1979--- 40


    1980--- 54


    1981--- 64


    1982--- 59


    1984--- 27


    1985--- 35


    1986--- 22


    1987--- 15


    1988--- 15


    1989--- 12


    1990--- 10


    1991--- 8


    1992--- 6


    1993--- 2


    2000--- 7


    2001--- 9


    2002--- 7


    2004--- 2


    2005--- 4


    2006--- 5


    2007--- 7



    Jerry Hauser
     
  19. Little Dog

    Little Dog TS Member

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    Pat and Neil are absolutely, 100% right- harder targets do drive away shooters. Sure, the harder targets were fine when shooters were real men, but the girly men of today prefer easier targets. BS you say- hah, I have proof.

    The proof is simple- ever since 2-hole targets became the norm, trapshooting entered it's greatest growth spurt ever and today is the fastest growing sport- second only to tiddly winks. In addition; skeet, with it's easy targets is growing by leaps and bounds while sporting clays, with it's highly difficult targets, is dying. Case proven- easier is good, harder is bad.
     
  20. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    A return to 3 hole targets occurred for 2 years in the mid 90's. From the data posted here previously for those two years, I didn't see much change from a couple years before and a couple years after.
     
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