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2-hole v.s. 3-hole

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by mercedesman1981, Nov 24, 2007.

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  1. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    I have read about this issue on some of the old threads, could someone please educate me on the difference between the two?

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Let the crap begin...
     
  3. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    No such thing as a 3-hole anymore. Western handset traps went the way of the Dinosaur!!
     
  4. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Thanks for the enlightening me flalagarto. The difference then is a wider angle plus more distance (which seems the speed would also be higher if the distance was greater) so the debate comes in as to degree of difficulty between the two? (and naturally, the differences would be emphasized at handicap distances). Does this sound correct to you?

    thanks again,

    Mike
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No Mike, the difference is wider angle, from about 42 to about 35. But that's from the trap; from the shooter's position the difference is far less, or course.

    The speed is not greater if the angles is greater; the two are unrelated.

    Neil
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No Mike, the difference is wider angle, from about 42 to about 35. But that's from the trap; from the shooter's position the difference is far less, or course.

    The speed is not greater if the angles is greater; the two are unrelated.

    Neil
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I am glad this topic came up again, it has been about two weeks. Let me answer the post made by my friend jbor in Texas before he makes it. Jimmy, I disagree with your conclusions about why trap was so popular 30 years ago.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. KRE

    KRE TS Member

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    I prefer to shoot the 3rd or 4th hole myself. Adding wobble to the 3rd or 4th hole while shooting a slider, should be an event, scored by it's self.


    I'd like to see the ATA go back to the 3rd hole, with a 52-55yd min. Quit the feel good target throwing as many are not looking for the mind game vs scores. Some might even return to the game they once love'd for the basic reason they started shooting it, in the first place.

    Is there more to the sport than the 3 events being touted/posted? Might be time for a change. Last I looked new and old blood had wallets as well and we all know money talks.

    The cost of todays shooting is not the holding factor for many, the ATA should think out of the box a little more offen.

    Kenneth
     
  9. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    If you hurry you might get this debate going another 3 or 4 times before the end of the year.

    Don
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    One tiny little addendum is always left out of the 3/2 hole rule in most discussions here. It wasn't totally a 42 degree angle target that was considered legal. A target outside those parameters by several degrees was also considered a legal target. That in turn made shooters make a split second decision on firing at a wide target (legal) or turning it down and have it called a loss! Can anyone imagine actually having to put lead on a right angle from station one going to the right? That fact alone makes a drastic difference between the now and then discussion in trapshooting angles. Quotes from the old/new rule book would be telling the complete story, not just a part of the rule. Hap
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on, Hap, the rule was changed not because of the immeasurable angle thing; the old rule was just silly. You couldn't throw a target 25 degrees right and left of either a two or three hole from most houses - they would hit the side or the roof. The rule change made no difference at all.

    Neil
     
  12. jakearoo

    jakearoo Active Member

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    Neil, I think it is amazing that the president of the organization communicates with the rank and file in an open forum. You are an honorable and exceptional man. But, I think to say "The rule change made no difference at all" is a little over the top. There is no question the game is easier now. Best Regards, Jake
     
  13. fearlessfain

    fearlessfain TS Member

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    trap shooters like to brag about high scores.
     
  14. setter

    setter Member

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    On the later model Pat-Traps the angles are set with the limit switches which are on the oscillation cylinder.
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    jakearoo in defense of Mr. Winston's statement "The rule change made no difference at all" I feel that in most cases the Voice Release Systems have had a bigger impact on scores than 3 hole targets. Yet I don't hear anyone advocating doing away with the Voice Release Systems. JMO.

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bob Lawless- Don't forget about the difference between hand set targets and the automatic traps that have replaced the hand set machines.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I should have been more clear. It was the change of "NO TARGET" from 25 degrees outside of normal to 10 degrees outside of normal which I don't see as having any effect. We don't have any more claims of "outside" now than we did then, it seems to me. Few enough illegal ones get out of the house anyway.

    The effect of the roof is a little-considered aspect of the too-wide-target situation. For example, some of the roofs of the houses on the east end of Vandalia were so low they wouldn't throw straightaways from 1 & 5 when asked to do so in 1996.

    The contrast between "2-hole" and "straightaway from 1 & 5" is a difference, though it's seldom more than a couple of birds in a round. Still, you have to be ready for them, and _that's_ a difference.



    Neil
     
  18. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    Doug, Our club switched from the old Win-West. hand traps to LaPorte's a few years ago. I was told that the new traps were made for direct replacement of the older traps. The holes of our old traps fit directly to the new traps. From the way the LaPorte's throw targets I can't tell any difference in how the "old" targets flew in comparison. A 3 hole target on an old machine correlates to a 3 hole target on a new one. 2 hole for 2 hole etc. The new machines were made to replace the WW's. In my opinion they are not different.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917

    PS Pat Ireland, Are you saying that the new machines throw a different target than the old WW's?
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jerry- With the hand set machines and a good target setter in the house there were always a few times the target did not get set against the finger on the arm. Some really wide targets would be thrown and most of us could not tell they were very wide until we shot. Sometimes we hit these wide targets and sometimes we missed them. Many years ago an improperly set target on my last post at the Grand changed my handicap score from a 98, and a possibly trophy, to a 97 and no possible trophy.

    And, sometimes the trap boy was not too good and a lot of wild targets would come out of the house. The "flipper" that went almost straight up and only traveled 15 yards instead of 50 yards was always entertaining.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. Neal Crausbay

    Neal Crausbay Member

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    Neil your comment on the roofs of the trap houses on the East end in Vandalia made above is a little less than accurate. Remember these same trap houses threw nothing but 3 hole targets from the time they were put in until about 1978 (over 30 years) and threw them again in 1995 as well as 1996. The Winchester 1524 arrived at the Grand in the 50's (first marketed in 1949) so the same machines threw 3 hole targets for around 20 years out of these houses.

    The one trap house that caused a problem was the one just East of the grandstand and the problem came from conditions or desires to set a target higher than had usually been set. For many years the ATA set a 9 ft. target as recommended in the rulebook when conditions permitted during the Grand. My EC (and those that followed) liked the 10ft.+ target that showed more of the face and required that the higher setting be used. This was when the one house would break some of the targets. Obviously there was something slightly different about this one house, probably in the base.

    Do me a favor. I contend the 1524 throws more targets near the outside angles than the Pat Trap does. And I believe this to be caused by the rotating angle plate source of movement instead of the hydraulic(sp?) with limit switches. Over a given length of time, I think the 1524 will clock more time at or near the outside angles than the Pat will. Would you look into this?
     
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