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$2 Bucks? You Have Got To Be Kidding.

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by JBrooks, Feb 14, 2008.

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  1. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I prepaid my Spring Grand Shoot Fees. The ATA and the Arizona State association both charge only $2.00 per day shoot fees. Good Grief. What can you buy for $2.00? A cheap combo meal at a fast food joint is $4.00+. Come on guys, raise the dues and raise the daily fees, get some cash flow going and reinvest it to grow the sport.

    WAAAAAAAAAAA! Yeah, I know you guys with your expensive trap guns, shooting AAs and STSs and $30,000+ SUV/pickups are going to squeal like girly pigs about how much everything costs. You are right, it does and the Associations need to start spending some cash to help local clubs bring more people into shooting for the first time.
     
  2. The Rock

    The Rock Active Member

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    That is normal. For Ohio anyway. $2.00 per day each.

    Rock

    Jim
     
  3. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Normal and shortsighted.
     
  4. berettagold53954

    berettagold53954 TS Member

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    they raise the fees and youll lose people not get more trapshooting is already too expensive for most unless its your only hobby its hard to afford and believe me my wife wouldnt let me shoot and never bring her and my daughter anywhere people need to realize not everyone has unlimited funds and if prices raise too high this sport is dead i already have noticed theres not alot of younger people who do it ive tried to get a few and there comment is thats a rich mans sport they cant afford it
     
  5. K80433SC

    K80433SC Member

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    Although not particularly well-written, berettagold53954 -- your thoughts are well-taken by MANY of us who shoot registered targets.
    Those at the "top" -- both in administration of the ATA (at every level), and the fortunate with seemingly-unlimited financial means would do well to heed the warnings.

    All the signs are there, and (yet) they insist on burying their heads in the proverbial sand -- as if all is well in model city.
    The escalating costs of this game are taking their erosive toll on the average working man, and the end result will be less participation by the real lifeblood of the organization.

    I, too, might scoff at such reasoning -- were I a millionaire or a sponsored All American. However -- this small segment of the shooting community is not what is filling squads or campgrounds at major tournaments across America.

    And YES -- I drive a $30,000 truck, too. But -- that same truck will also provide my transportation to & from work SIX days a week. It is not a symbol of status that proves I have the means to travel the country to attend the various regional Grands.

    Trapshooting used to be a wealthy man's game ; unthinkable by the common man's standards of living. Whether you choose to feel the "winds of change" or not, it is RE-gressing to the same situation. Raising dues and fees will not do anything to "help" the organization grow in shooter numbers. My wife once asked me "Why does everything you do seem to be with old men"? Although I chuckled at her question (at the time), I also realized just how SAD the answer was. Younger, working men who are raising families simply cannot AFFORD this venture. As the current shooting community ages (and dies), what possible lure is there to attract younger shooters.......higher fees? I think not.....

    I totally respect and admire those with the means to engage in this sport as if there were "no tomorrow". GOD bless you for having achieved that place in your lives. But when the time comes that you look around, and it is merely the few ............

    Imagine how much MORE fees will have to increase, when a smaller fraction of participants are left to absorb the burden. And given the choice between paying my ATA fees (however high you raise them) or eating that $4.00 meal at a burger point, I'll choose eating EVERY time.

    Necessity governs luxury. We all have two eyes. Some would do well to open theirs...............
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    JBrooks- Many businesses have demonstrated that increasing prices is a way to decrease income.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Yes, look at the current trends in the fa(s)t food industry...

    Both McDonalds and Wendy's have recently announced cuts in the prices of some of their more popular menu items because they realize that money is tight and that people now have less money to spend on their products!

    Morgan
     
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    k80, well said.

    American industry has had to open its eyes and attempt to deliver better dollar value. The auto industry inparticular. (remember the Chrysler "K" cars?)

    In part this has been done with modernization, and improving productivity. Delivering a better product was a distinct necessity.

    Raising ATA fees to deliver the same old product may not be a good survival tactic.

    It may be time to step back and take a look at what's needed, and determine where to improve services or trim the waistline.

    So would a "bare bones" ATA with lower fees increase attendance?

    I don't have access to the right numbers but it seems that state fees and ATA fees make up 10-12 percent or more of the total entry. Is that enough, too much , or just right?

    I have to say I have given up registered skeet, since it seems like the sport wants to favor top shooters and well to do participants. Recent attendance in our area bears this out.

    I hope ATA shooting is not next on my list. We are lucky in my area to have plenty of league shooting and club events. Other parts of the country are not so lucky.

    The economy does not look good for a large segment of the population, Trap will take a hit because of it. It's inevitable. How many of the "New" GM workers at lower wages will be able to enjoy the shooting sports?

    Rough ride coming.

    HM
     
  9. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    K80433SC- I'm not going to say you're wrong because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I've been shooting trap since I have been a sophmore in high school (with the exception of a layoff in college). It is my belief that the sport was more or less a rich man's game...this was 1972/1973. I shot what I could afford to shoot. My Dad took pity on me as I was shooting his field-grade Sportsman's 58. It beat the snot out of me and I loved it! He bought an OLD 870 from our next door neighbor by the name of Charlie Weeks for $125. I was in heaven! Charlie taught me how to reload, took me to some out of town shoots and I was off and running. Trap has always been an expensive sport for me. Somewhat still is but what hobby/sport/vice isn't? I believe trap/sporting etc is a whole lot cheaper than hanging aroung in bars, chasing skirts and getting into trouble. Divorce is expensive too! Anywho trap has always been and continues to be an expensive sport. It is being squeezed right now (and maybe always has been) as discretionary income is diminishing. Shooting is a decision as to how to spend that discretionary income. When I have less I shoot targets only or just plain shoot less. It always has been a spendy hobby and probably always will but will I ever give it up? I hope not. Jut my opinion. SIncerely.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  10. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I would be in favor of increase yearly and daily dues. Providing the ATA would use the money to pursue a good due dilligence study of our sport. And then when completed implement whatever changes are recommended. We have been declining for years and the only reason the total numbers are close is because of the SCTP program. Take those targets away and we would be showing a greater decline than most believe.

    None of us want to spend more money on the sport, but just maybe quality would be more enjoyable than quantity. Just my opinion. - Jim
     
  11. Pugs

    Pugs TS Member

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    Many on this site have far greater business and economic acumen than I do. My understanding of econonomics is very basic by comparison. My belief is that there is only so much discretionary income to go around. A rise in the price of anything that would fall into a "discretionary" catagory would cause anybody, regardless of their financial profile, to re-prioritize their discretionary dollars. Raising prices would only decrease participation.

    With that said, and example would be the current local club I belong to. At one point, membership was around 650 members. After a series of membership dues and per line increases, membership now stands at 330. Directors at the club, citing low membership and therefore fewer lines being shot, fewer hamburgers being sold, etc. etc. have determined that in order to raise sufficient revenue, a further raise in membership dues and line fees is in order.(?) I don't know guys, your starting to squeeze this country boy pretty hard.

    I would welcome the opportunity to sit at the feet of an economist and be schooled on how raising prices would increase participation.

    No one likes to shoot any more than I do but current conditions require that I re-prioritize my discretionary dollars. ( I have a little granddaughter I love spending time with and with $1.00 for an ice cream cone I'm viewed as the ruler of the universe and that is a greater feeling than shooting a 100 straight.)

    Best to all
     
  12. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    How to identify a Trap Shooter

    Big guy 6' 2" 250lbs, has a $20,000.00 gun, has a $30,000.00 SUV with gun-vault to carry his spare $15,000.00 gun, ammo, shooting bag, and other accessories. He is attired in Bib Overalls with pointy-toed cowboy boots, and a big Johnson T-Shirt. In the pocket of his bib, he has a wad of $100.00 bills that could choke a horse. You can hear him while registering (don’t play options) and trying to figure out if he wants post 3 or post 5 and does he really want to shoot early or late. All the while and all he does is complain about how expensive his hobby is.

    Ronbo
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Pat,

    Every business that fails to invest in marketing and promotion has demonstrated that it is the most efficient way to go out of business as quickly as possible.

    To be successful in business you have to deliver a good product and it has to be percieved as a good value by your customers. However, you have let people know you are delivering a good product and you have to appeal to the demographic that can afford your product.

    Trapshooting is expensive and you can make it as expensive as you want but you can't make it as cheap as you want.

    K80, WAAAAA you are breaking my heart. I drive a 1995 car, shoot WalMart Federals out of my $1500 BT99 Plus. The difference in insurance and license fees between our cars probably covers a big portion of my annual shooting costs. We all make choices. If you shot 40 registered shoots and paid a lousy $2.00 more per day in association fees during the year it would be less than one tank of gas in your big pickup. BOO HOO.

    Raise the dues, raise the shoot fees and INVEST the money in finding new shooters. That way all you guys with a safe or two full of trap guns you never or can't shoot can sell one to newbie and pay for the increased fees for probably the rest of your lives.
     
  14. trappermike

    trappermike Well-Known Member

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    As the doe says as she walked out of the forest, "I'll never do that for two bucks again" !!

    :)
     
  15. berettagold53954

    berettagold53954 TS Member

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    they can invest all they want but im sure they know people cant afford it already so whats the point besides they already have a monopoly if your going to shoot registered you have to go through them people already say they cant afford it so if they raise fees to advertise and what not they are throwing money out the window leave it to the members we are the ones to bring new people in oh and if you have enough for extra fees donate it to the sctp so the kids can shoot more thats where your new members are comeing from
     
  16. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    Been my experiance, if the whole family is shooting they have money to spare and will not bitch about the cost. Big problem with our game is too many people are shooting way beyond his or her means and then complain when the prices go up. Time to think about priorties, eating or shooting clay targets, paying the morgage or shooting clay targets. THIS IS A GAME not a way of life!Maybe you need to think find another past time like watching the grass grow.

    Ronbo
     
  17. rmngtngrl

    rmngtngrl TS Member

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    If I read Jim's post correctly it states that the ATA and ATSA is charging 4.00 per day for daily fees. For the family with 2 kids shooting and the parents that is 4 people shooting and if they shoot the whole program ( 6 days for example) that would be $96.00 dollars ...(4x4x6 )I don't know about you but that is a big enough chunk of change to come up with for a hobby, which is what this sport is since not alot are making a living out of it, (I know I know there are those that try). I don't think right now is the time to raise the price of anything in a"hobby", most will just find another hobby....

    Kym
     
  18. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Sorry Kym, no sale here. If your same family shot the whole program, their "targets and trophies only" cost would be $294.00 each plus $24.00 in association fees for a total of $318.00 X 4 = $1,272.00. Doubling the fees would cost an additional $96.00 or an increase of 7.5% in entry fees.

    Of course, they will each go through 5 flats of shells. I won't count travel, lodging and food expenses in that we will assume that it is their family vacation.

    However, if the approximately 700 shooters all paid an additional $2 per day to the Arizona Assocation, it would have over $8000 dollars to support new shooter programs. Let's see, how about an "Invite Your Neighbor" program where a gun club member could invite a non-shooter friend to join him at his club for a couple of free rounds. Let's say $4.00 for targets and $5.00 for ammo X 2 rounds = $18.00. $8000 divided by $18.00 = 444 people introduced to the sport.

    Maybe White Flyer, Remington, Winchester and Federal do a matching dollar in kind trade. That would mean almost 900 people introduced to the sport just by raising the price by the cost of a large drink at MickeyDs per day.

    You can't grow a business unless you invest in it. We can't grow the sport unless we invest in it. Undercharging for your product does not provide the money to make the investment.
     
  19. T/C

    T/C TS Member

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    What the hey is a "Girly Pig"?
     
  20. tcr1146

    tcr1146 Well-Known Member

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    When I left the farm many years ago, we still called girly pigs- sows! Tom Rhoads
     
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