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1oz vs 1 1/8 oz issue

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by smsnyder, Jul 17, 2010.

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  1. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Since the 3hole target is such issue why not go to 1 oz loads across the board for trapshooting? Less shot on the ground, less recoil , less cost to reload and buy. Heck, bunker trap only uses 7/8 oz loads. Futhermore, according to Neil's 2005 chart there were 31500000 targets shot at. That's a ton of 1/8 oz loads that we can be saved. It's better then the alternative if you get my drift.
     
  2. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree more... I went to 1oz. loads a couple of years ago because of recoil, but I also saved money. Those 1290fps AA's in a 1oz load work darn good from the back line.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    A couple of problems that concern me are, Earl,

    1. It would widen the gap between very, very good shooters and the rest of us.

    2. How many shooters would miss a target or two and say "With my handloads and 700-X under 1 1/8 oz of shot, those targets would have been dead! Now the ATA has taken away my ability to shoot a high score and I say to hell with them!" ? A few years ago I made a strong pitch for one-ounce at the Minnesota state meeting and asked for a show of hands. All but a couple supported 1 1/8 oz.

    Earl, did you ever try that lower POI I have recommended to you for at least a decade? How did it work?

    Neil
     
  4. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Neil i do not think it will wilden the gap between the poor shooters and better shooter. My scores stay( about) the same weither i shoot 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz loads even though i am a poor shooter. Do you have any facts on this as you did the 3 hole issue? I do believe it will cut down a little on 100 straights and also make handicap events more even. I honestly believe in this day and age shot loads should be cut to 1 oz loads. I do feel that the 1 oz issue will be addressed in the ATA before the 3 hole issue. It only makes sense.( By the way missing a target two is not the big issue here.) By using 1 oz loads it making the playing field even in 16 yard and handicap events, it cuts down on 100 straight and it also is saving on the amount of shot on the ground. Shooters benifit by less recoil and less expense to shoot. Neil you should keep making a pitch for 1 oz loads. If not, time will force us to change anyways.
     
  5. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that the lack of high scores will keep shooters away. It doesn't matter in sporting clays. What's the difference if you win with a 92 or 100? Futheremore, there are no facts to say that the target would have been dead using 1/1/8 load vs 1 oz . load. Pure Bull. If your on your on.
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It would widen the gap, Earl, and the final part of the link above shows why.

    Neil
     
  7. RunGunIPSC

    RunGunIPSC TS Member

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    When it comes to practice or I am having fun shoots 1 oz or even 7/8 are fine.
    When all the cards are on the table the highest hand wins. Just as the most shot wins. That 1 extra pellet in a 1 1/8oz load is what wins the shoot FOR THE AVERAGE GUY. AGAIN,FOR THE AVERAGE GUY!!!!! The great shooters will always win with lesser shot & the gap will be even wider. I mentioned to a really good bunker shooter that has his own bunker that my scores were much better in the old days. Very simple he said. Now you are shooting 7/8. Before you were shooting 1 1/8th. The great shooter know how to center the target every time so that is why the spread will be even greater. Recoil??? Just lower the speed. Pick up a couple of boxes of Gold Medal Extra lite plastic or paper in 1 1/8. See how those feel & break targets. Again,it is all about putting the target in the center of the pattern. The good guys do this time after time. Ever see Leo smokeball them??? Why does this happen??? Center of pattern,every time. I DON'T!!!
     
  8. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    There was a reason why Neil was pitching 1 oz loads at one time. Less shot is more of an issue than going to 3 hole targets.
     
  9. TNCoach

    TNCoach Member

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    Neil,

    I have another reason to go to a 1 oz load. We're loosing a lot of youth shooters to the sport because of helpful parents and coaches forcing their sons and daughters to shoot 1 1/8 oz loads.

    Case 1: young man (sub-jr) at the TN State shoot shooting was shooting hot shells from the 16 and not staying in the gun very well. His squad had already questioned him before I had a chance to speak with the dad about his choice of shells. It turned out that dad wanted his son to shoot one shell and get used to it. The shell happened to be 1 1/8 nitro 27s.

    Case 2: another young man (1st year jr) in his quest for all american points only shot 3 dr 1 1/8 shells. The punishment finally caught up with him at a big shoot and his shoulder was bleeding profusely enough for shoot management to send him to the EMT station. The EMT people told the family to take him home because of a risk of blood poisoning, but dad sneaked him back in the next day for more punishment.

    I've seen a lot of parents treat their children this way and it doesn't send a positive message to allow the continued use of 1 1/8 shells for anyone under the age of 21.

    TNCoach
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Coach, I remember well when SCTP was just getting rolling at Vandalia I would walk down the line of youth teams and see more Nitros and Silvers on the ground and in shell pouches than I would on the 27 for the GAH.

    When ZS was more or less running it, I suggested to him at the Shot Show that SCTP restrict shells to one ounce and "light" speed, that is, old-time 2 3/4 DE.

    He seemed attentive, but the rule never happened, I guess.

    Neil
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "Since the 3hole target is such issue why not go to 1 oz loads across the board for trapshooting?"

    If the degree of angle causes 3 hole targets to be more difficult how will the amount of lead duplicate the difficulty. If you are on the target the target will break whether it is 1 ounce or 1-1/8 ounce if you put the gun on the target and pull the trigger the target will break.

    If you increase the angle you are making it harder to get the gun on the target. The amount of lead won't change the difficulty it will save money, save recoil, save the environment. It won't however change the degree of difficulty the targets will still be 2 hole. So what is the point of lighter loads they have nothing to do with 2 hole vs 3 hole another set of issues all together.

    Just out of curiosity why are we in such a hurry to change something. The 3 hole change is a suggestion to return to a past practice. A change to one ounce loads in a trip into uncharted waters. The 3 hole target is a return in the minds of many to a better time in trapshooting. The 1 ounce change is just that a change for the sake of change nothing more.

    Bob Lawless
     
  12. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    The change to 1 oz loads is a win win situation for everyone. Less shot on the ground is good for the environment. Again less recoil for kids as well as adults. less cost to both shooters to reload and buy.
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    smsnyder just out of curiosity who said you should decide what is win win situation for everyone???

    I don't happen to like 1 ounce loads, you do you can shoot them now. So why do you feel you have a right to tell me I can't shoot what I wish? That is what will happen if we go to 1 ounce across the board. I won't be able to shoot the shells I prefer.

    If you can shoot 1 ounce now why must the rest of us change??? Just shoot what you want and stop worrying about what other shoot. Why don't you give us the real reason you want everyone to shoot 1 ounce loads.

    Certainly it not because smsnyder thinks it is a good idea for the environment or for the kids or because its cheaper????

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    There would be no effect on the scores at all. International went from 36gm to 24 gm loads and scores are consistently higher now than ever. All I shoot are 7/8oz cuz I'm a miser - but it works just fine anyway.

    The problem would be that it is impossible to police and people would piss and moan about the cheaters. I say - who cares what the cheaters shoot. You wanna shoot 1 1/4oz? Go for it. It will make no difference in the finish lists.

    Charlie
     
  15. TNCoach

    TNCoach Member

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    Bob,

    Most of the youth shooters only shoot 16 so there would be no difference in the scores. I think a ruling like this would pass the ATA and actually encourage more youth shooters into the sport.

    Let's save the youth at the national level before someone hurts them and they walk away!

    Over a specific age, say 18 or 21, I really don't care what you shoot...keep it simple.

    My 2 Cents
    TNCoach
     
  16. BerettaJ

    BerettaJ Member

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    1oz. of 8 shot @ 1250fps. Approx. the same amount of shot as 1 1/8oz of 7 1/2. Better pattern, less recoil and works grewat all the way back to 27 yds. Same load for everything.
     
  17. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

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    16- 20 yard line.. shoot 1 1/8 oz

    21-25 yard line shoot 1 oz

    26-27 yard line shoot 7/8 oz

    I am sure to get flack over this suggestion HEHEHEHEH


    WesleyB
     
  18. LDAdd

    LDAdd TS Member

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    The whole issue of changing the handicap system is not based on applying the same restrictions (i.e. 1 oz loads, 3-hole targets, 30 yard targets, ad nauseum)to all handicap shooters across the board. The intent is only to make it more difficult for the VERY FEW 27 yarders that get there name in print in most of the large shoots...clear and simple, dumb down the game so 94's and 95's win the largest shoots after creating the above-noted 30 yard line with 1 oz loads and 3-hole targets for that yardage only. At most normal weekend shoots this is not a problem. If one expects to go to any of the "Grands" and instantly be competitive with the best in the game is absurd thinking. Consider that happening in the PGA....you have to make the cut just to play with those guys. We're lucky we don't have to do that.

    As I've said before, it's not the scores those guys are shooting, it's the scores we're shooting. If most of us would take those yardage reductions we're offered periodically then maybe we could occasionally crank out a 98 or so. This is exactly why the various yardage groups were created at a lot of shoots, that is 18-21, 22-24, 25-27, and currently many programs are making 27 yards a yardage group by itself just to curb the complaints. With that system it often happens that a loser in a given group has a higher score than a winner in another group, or visa-versa...don't hear many complaints about that do we? Only from me...(heh heh)! In other words we've corrupted a system that was intended to equalize the playing field for all distances and skill levels, except that old truth that some people are just a lot better at the game than some others will ever be. If your current 16 yard scores would not usually be good enough to win the handicap, then you have some work to do. No further handicapping of the big guys is required.

    JMO again....

    Larry

    I have to say that if the above-mentioned changes (3-hole, 1 oz, etc.) were adopted across the board, there would be a further widening gap between the various skill levels playing the game....and I wouldn't care if those changes were imposed....I couldn't beat Tiger or Phil with a 100 stroke handicap !
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "In other words we've corrupted a system that was intended to equalize the playing field for all distances and skill levels"

    I would love to know what observation prompted that statement. That would be an interesting discussion.

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    The game is already so dumbed down that it usually takes a 99 or 100 to win most major Handicap events. I also guess it's dumbed down to the point where 15 year olds with a minimum of experience are breaking 200's. How much more dumbing do we need!!
     
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