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1911 for Carry???? Reprise

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by dmarbell, Aug 29, 2010.

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  1. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Since we opened that can of worms, and hijacked the original thread:

    If a Glock is better for CCW, meaning more reliable and easier to operate, than a 1911, how about which Glock? (Standard magazine capacities.)

    G19 - 15+1 of 9mm

    G26 - 10+1 of 9mm (smallest size)

    G27 - 9+1 of 40 (same size as G26)

    G36 - 6+1 of 45 ACP

    G29 - 10+1 of 10mm (about the same size as G36)

    The G19 measures just slightly larger than the G36.

    Danny
     
  2. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    I prefer a S&W mod 42 myself...
     
  3. rocko

    rocko Member

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    Looks like you want a Glock. Find an indoor range that rents pistols and shoot them all.
     
  4. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    Big difference between carrying or wearing a gun & shooting a gun. If you live in a warm & I mean warm climate & you are retired, what kind of gun do you want to carry & is easily concealable. Also, big difference from shooting at silouettes and a real target, or shooting in total darkness. If you're not a LEO and used to wearing a handgun all the time, lightness & reliability are a key- I like a small frame wheel gun with a Crimson Trace.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
  5. melbournemike

    melbournemike TS Member

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    There are many variables to consider when carrying concealed,weather(and the clothes you wear)weight, body shape(being fat makes waistband holsters uncomfortable),hand size I'm retired LEO and I've found the most comfortabl is shoulder holster,living here in Florida makes that impractable,I'm overweight and paddle or belt holsters are uncomfortable,My personal experience leaves my only one option,a compact pocket gun, all glocks are far too big to be pocket guns.Colt ,Beretta ,Kel tec,ruger all make easyly concealable pocket size guns and there are many more options than those,I carry a kel tec p11 9mm and a Beretta mod 21a in .25 The beretta is virtually invisible in your pocket and light weight,.25 is not much of a bullet but at 10 feet and under will get the job done,even .22 will work.shop around and chose wisely guns are expensive.
     
  6. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Unless you are going to carry it in a duty holster rig, I do not think a Glock is a good choice. Face it, that little trigger flap deal is not a safety. If you carry a round in the chamber, you are carrying a cocked hammer/ no safety, sidearm. In a duty holster that covers the trigger, maybe. If you are going to carry with an empty chamber, then you need two hands and ability to move to ready the first shot. That kind of negates the part about being ready. I have used an officers model 1911 for many days of concealed carry. Since I competitively shot a full size 1911, the controls were natural. There are many good DA/SA and DAO pistols out there with a real safety, I would choose one of those over a Glock. Another thing I have learned over 25+ years of carry, every ounce you save counts, as does regular practice.
     
  7. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Sorry for the confusion. For non-Glock recommendations, see the original thread "1911 for Carry????" This thread asked for recommendations among the Glocks.

    As I stated in the other thread, I have a Para Ordnance Slim Hawg for CCW.

    I think among the Glocks I listed above, the choice is between the G26 and the G29. The 26 is the smallest and most concealable. If going with the .45, as ShootingCoach advised, why not go with the 29 and get 10+1 rounds of 10mm power?

    Danny
     
  8. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    G23 40 S&W 13 rounds, same size as the G19 and only 3 oz heaver loaded than the G36 with 7 extra rounds. In my personal opinion all the sub compact Glocks have TERRIBLE grip angles due to the short length. The 40 S&W rates higher in one shot stops (in reported uses)than either the 9 or the 45 with a larger variety of ammo. The 10mm is a good caliber but requires a large frame Glock which is just a little big for my short stubby hands and ammo is sometimes a bear to find.

    If I personally had to go with your choices above I would choose the G19 stoked with Nato Spec (+P+) 124-127 grain JHPS by Cor-Bon, Federal Winchester or Remington

    --- Chip King ---
     
  9. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    I have to agree that the Glocks are a little wide, but I have no trouble concealing my G27. The thing about size is that you have to make compromises. Large caliber guns and high capacity magazines make concealment a chore. Small calibers and low capacity magazines are more easily hidden, but offer less power.

    Leo you are wrong about your assumptions. The Glock has no hammer. It is impossible to carry a Glock "cocked". If you have the Glock holstered there is no way you can get to the trigger while it's in the holster, either by accident or on purpose. Conversely, if you carry a 1911, or any other hand gun, in condition 1, the safety can be bumped off and now you're in condition 0 which is very hazardous.

    The Glock will not fire unless you want it to. And if you want it to fire, it will. In a self defense situation you cannot ask for a better gun.

    Sorry, I got off track there a moment.

    The 10mm is a great round and has a lot of power, but that is also its downfall. I found the 10mm very difficult to control. This makes the second shot quite difficult. This is why I prefer the .40S&W, more controllable.

    So, I carry a G27 with a Pearce extension on the mag. Concealable, but effective.


    [​IMG]
     
  10. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    Know a secret service agent who was assigned to a member of the first family. Their carry weapon is a Sig chambered in 40S&W. This is great if you're over 6'3" 240lbs and wear a suit or jacket all the time.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
  11. ccw1911

    ccw1911 Member

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    Even with the thumb safety off the 1911 has other safeties, the grip safety which blocks trigger movement, the half cock notch which job is to catch the hammer should it fall without the trigger being pulled all the way, the inertia firing pin that will prevent it from firing when dropped, and if it is a 80 series type it will have a firing pin lock which will not allow the the firing pin to move unless the trigger is pulled fully to the rear.

    Condition 0 is not hazardous, it means the thumb safety is turned off and the pistol is ready to fire once the grip safety is off and the trigger is pulled. The pistol would be useless if condition 0 did not exist.


    Leo has some very good points in his post. Everyone should pick what they want for a carry or protection piece, but don't write off the 1911 just because it has been successfully doing that job extremely well for almost 100 years.
     
  12. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Judging from years of training thousands of students, the carry arm for an Armed Citizen must be;

    1. Small and light (or it will not be carried)

    2. Simple to shoot (or a shot is less likely to be fired in a panic situation)

    3. Reliable. (one cannot count on getting a stoppage cleared in a gunfight)

    4. Shot regularly (does not happen with most folks)

    5. Easily inspected and serviced (Glock field Armorers do this for free)

    6. Secured in a quality holster (safe to recover to and access from, secure enough to not fall out in a tumble, not so secure that it would be difficult to access)

    7. Powerful enough to be effective, not so powerful that it is difficult to control.

    Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors for a reason. Find a high quality sidearm you feel comfortable with, then become proficient and confident with it.

    I know several folks who carry different guns like they wear different shoes. In a panic, can they effectively deploy the "gun of the day" to save their life?

    I carry a Glock. End of discussion. I no longer carry a revolver or any other auto pistol. I am transitioned to the Glock. No conscious thought is required to respond to a threat.

    THIS is more important than the choice of arm you will carry.
     
  13. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    LEO hit the nail on the head. A Glock needs to be carried in a PROPER holster that COMPLETELY covers the trigger. Glocks are not a safe design to be pocket carried. Claiming that there is no hammer, and that the trigger must be pulled to fire is immaterial. There have been plenty of accidents that prove this.

    For those who do not know how the Glock works, it is striker fired, meaning it only has a firing pin, not a hammer. When the slide is racked, this striker is set to partially cocked position. The trigger pulls the striker through and releases it. This gives a much shorter, lighter trigger pull than if the trigger had to pull the striker through its entire travel length. While not quite good technical jargon, the term "half-cocker" is not far off the mark.

    The Glock trigger has a safety release on the trigger itself. This release must be depressed in order to pull the trigger. It is not failure of the release that causes the problem. It is a design issue, in that any foreign object can easily depress the release, and it doesn't take a lot of force to pull the trigger. Glocks have been fired by getting keys, pens, and other common pocket items inserted in the trigger guard. They've been fired in holsters that expose the trigger by sticks, twigs, and other objects.

    Let's compare the Glock to another gun with a similar design. The Savage Accu-Trigger. It too has a light trigger pull with a safety lever on the trigger face that has to be pulled. The firing, pin, though, is at full cock, unlike the Glock. In this respect the Glock has to have more force applied to the trigger, so the comparison is not exactly the same, but similar. One big difference, though. The Savage rifle has a safety that prevents release of the firing pin, even if the trigger is pulled. The Glock does not. (Why Glock did not install one for general production is a good question. Supposedly Glock did on a run for a South American contract that would otherwise have canceled.)

    Going further with the Glock, it is a controversial design in another respect. And that's cartridge ruptures causing severe damage and some injuries. In a nutshell:

    - The Glock is not a good design for lead bullets. Only jacketed bullets should be fired in it.

    - The Glock is not a good design for reloaded ammunition, whether home made or commercially made.

    - Improperly maintained Glocks can fire out of battery.

    The reasons are the barrel rifling design, and the design of its feed ramp and chamber. (Fired and resized cases are slightly weakened, and this is all the Glock needs to be able to, once in a blue moon, blow out the lower case side because of less case support when in the chamber.)

    The link provides more information and a more detailed analysis of the issues with Glocks.

    What I've written SHOULD NOT be taken as a condemnation of the Glock. Rather, it is educational. Anyone considering a Glock should consider these points and decide if a Glock meets their criteria. For example, if you want to shoot reloads, consider a different gun. If you want to pocket carry, consider a different gun. If you only shoot new factory jacketed ammo, and carry in a properly designed holster that covers the trigger guard, and maintain your Glock, then get a Glock and don't look back.
     
  14. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Somebody is watching too many movies. It is 90 degrees out today, totally impractical to conceal a big, heavy hogleg 45 on a hot summer day. Wear one long enough and you will be walking funny like John Wayne. Glocks hold so much ammo they are all heavy. The only practical solution is a small ,lightweight 38 in the front pocket. Even then you are more likely to blow your balls off than get into a gunfight.
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    <i>"Even then you are more likely to blow your balls off than get into a gunfight."</i>

    Somebody has been reading too much Sarah Brady.
     
  16. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    B in O, If Sarah said that it is the only true statement she ever made. I have at least 29 handguns in my safe, I have lost track. Some are the best available. All sorts of holsters. The only time I ever carried a gun was at the public boat ramp before daylight on weekends. I now go to the gated boatramp. Not against carry, just find it impractical and inconvenient. Truth is , most people don't have a clue as to what would happen if they were involved in a gunfight.
     
  17. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, I'm sorry you don't have confidence in concealed carry. Perhaps it's not for you.
     
  18. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    B in O, It is not my personal lack of confidence that is an issue. It is some people's macho man overconfidence. They don't understand the stress involved and how they will lose their fine motor control and be all thumbs. They won't be Dirty Harry, they will be DOA. Those are the guys that start these threads and ask the questions about what gun to carry and the guys that chime in about the badass arsenals they carry around.
     
  19. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    I'm with 635G and Melbournemike. If you are planning to carry a full-size, or even Commander-size 1911 for concealed carry, or even the "small" Glocks...think again. They're too big, heavy, and hard to conceal. If you are a huge person, who wears big bulky jackets all the time, (thus living in cool/cold climates) then maybe.

    Why do you think Kel-tec, Ruger LCP, Baby Beretta, etc. sales are through the roof, along with .32 and .380 ammo sales? .25 ACP is hard to come by in some areas.

    Believe me, there will be those who will get on here and swear they've carried a full-size tricked-out 1911 fully concealed on their person in 90-degree weather while wearing shorts and a t-shirt for the last ten years.

    Others will tell you that if you carefully plan your wardrobe and body movements around your gun, it can be done. Have fun with that.

    uh-huh.

    bluedsteel
     
  20. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Sadly enough, Jerry has very valid points. Without extensive, realistic practice, things will likely go south when you really need to launch high velocity projectiles to save your life, or the life of another.

    Very few folks would know what to do in a house or office fire. No practice, no performance.

    I do not typically recommend pocket carry. Most pants do not have a sufficiently sized pocket and opening to carry any reasonable firearm, or to allow unfettered access to said firearm.

    "It is some people's macho man overconfidence. They don't understand the stress involved and how they will lose their fine motor control and be all thumbs"

    Jerry, you are exactly right. Don't forget impaired judgment, tunnel vision, and auditory exclusion.

    The only possible edge I have with training exclusively and regularly with one type of weapons system is that no conscious thought is required to access and deploy the arm to stop an attacker. Out of the last 10,000 or so rounds I have fired from a pistol I own, every one has been fired from a Glock. I am in the midst of selling my other defensive sidearms, other than loaners for classes.
     
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