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16yd Velocity to match 27yd Velocity ?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hammer1, Jul 19, 2013.

  1. Hammer1

    Hammer1 Active Member

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    If I am reading it right...

    The Remington "Arc of Flight" chart shows the peak of the clay target flight at 31 yards from the trap house.

    Using the KPY Shotshell Ballistics program available from Ballistic Products…

    A #7½ lead shot pellet fired from the 27 yard Handicap line leaving the muzzle at 1235 fps is still going about 544 fps when it hits the clay target at that peak.

    From the 16 yard Singles line that same pellet only needs to leave the muzzle at 975 fps to still be going that 544 fps when it hits the clay target.

    Does moving back 11 yards require an additional 260 fps muzzle velocity to hit with the same impact ?

    Do these numbers sound anything close to right ?

    I may be using the ballistic calculator all wrong.

    .
     
  2. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    Yes, they sound right.

    I use 200 fps differential as a rule of thumb.

    If you are using #8 or smaller shot from the 16, because of ballistic coefficient, these shot will slow down faster than the 7 1/2 shot.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    H1, look more carefully at the Remington drawing.

    Neil
     
  4. Border Bandit

    Border Bandit Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your point; but isn't it velocity to compensate for target rise that's the issue, not energy required to break the target?

    best.... mike
     
  5. Hammer1

    Hammer1 Active Member

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    Neil,

    It may be too early in the morning and too short a night before...

    But I think the Remington drawing is showing 31 yards from the trap house as the peak of the clay target arc which would be 47 yards from the 16 yard line Singles shooter.

    Am I not reading it right ?

    I could be reading it all wrong.

    Hammer

    .
     
  6. Straight50

    Straight50 Member

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    Doesn't, higher volicity just sustain the arc of trajectory for a longer period of time? It doesn't,t raise the arc........doe,s it?
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    H1, you are looking at the peak of flight, where the target is out of range for both singles and handicap.

    You should be using "20 yard singles" in the drawing, and even that is way too far for most high-scoring shooters, the best of whom shoot them little more than half that far out.

    Neil


    I wouldn't take the Remington drawings too seriously anyway.
     
  8. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    This problem is very simple.

    Drawings need not be presented.

    The only thing needed is to know the velocity of the 27 load at the moment it crosses the 16. This velocity would be the starting velocity of the 16 load.
     
  9. Scott Johnson

    Scott Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I would guess most "experienced shooters" break singles 28-32 yds from the 16 yard line and 40 to 45 yards from the 27 yard line, (from the gun) YMMV Scott
     
  10. Hammer1

    Hammer1 Active Member

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    First, thank y'all for your thoughts, insight, and suggestions.

    Appreciate it.


    Using the KPY Shotshell Ballistics program once again...

    When the #7½ lead shot pellet is started at 1235 fps and fired from the 27 yard Handicap line, it has slowed to 975 fps as it crosses the 16 yard Singles line, i.e., when it has traveled 11 yards.

    .
     
  11. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    So then, some peeps talk about handicap loads being overpowered and unnecessary for hdcp trap, when in actuality, singles loads are the ones that are overpowered.
     
  12. perezal

    perezal Member

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  13. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    If you're using hard shot and shooting reasonably quickly your pellets probably have plenty of energy to break the target, so let's look at this topic in a way that might be more interesting...

    Consider that, at the point when targets are typically broken, singles targets are rising more rapidly than handicap targets. Then simultaneously consider these two comments made above:

    SCOOTERBUM: "...some peeps talk about handicap loads being overpowered and unnecessary for hdcp trap, when in actuality, singles loads are the ones that are overpowered."

    BORDER BANDIT: "...isn't its velocity to compensate for target rise that's the issue, not energy required to break the target?"

    Combining these two points really makes some sense. I mean, perhaps the most important consideration regarding singles velocity vs. handicap velocity isn't pellet energy at all, but instead the important thing is choosing loads which seem to perform similarly from YOUR visual and reflexes perspective. In other words, the ideal velocities are those which allow you to shoot singles targets and handicap targets almost the same way -- the same perceived lead, the same approximate call-to-shot time, etc.

    After all, once you get pretty good at trap isn't most of the game simply about repeatability? It's easier to repeat, and be successful, if your singles and handicap targets seem more similar to your eyes and brain.

    -Gary
     
  14. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Good input Gary.
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, I think you have it right in a lot of respects but wonder in what way "singles targets are rising more rapidly than handicap targets." Also, how do get the same perceived lead in singles and handicap when the mathematical leads are quite different?

    Neil
     
  16. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Come on, Neil. Obviously you of all people know that the angle between the gun bbl and the ground is more acute from 27 yards than it is from 16. So of course from the shooter's barrel-raising perspective the bird is rising much quicker from up close. Anyone who doesn't get this need only imagine shooting with his knees against the back of the traphouse. The targets would appear to be going straight up like a rocket.

    Regarding your second point, that's part of MY arguement! I said PERCEIVED lead for a reason.

    You're just toying with me aren't you?

    -Gary
     
  17. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    We're all different, so we see leads different. I shoot handicap slower than 16's, and my gun movement is slower, thus my "perceived" lead on 27's is a bit different.

    My micro processor between my ears has a problem applying math.
     
  18. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Exactly -- there's no time for math or any cognitive thought while the bird is flying so we just LOOK and shoot.

    -Gary

    PS: One time I suggested it might be OK to think JUST A LITTLE BIT during the target's flight, but then Phil Kiner drove to my house and punched me in the face.

    :p
     
  19. Brady509

    Brady509 Well-Known Member

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    if no thinking is key, according to my wife i should be aaa27aaa. lmao

    brady
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, you wrote:

    "Anyone who doesn't get this need only imagine shooting with his knees against the back of the traphouse. The targets would appear to be going straight up like a rocket."

    I think you should think about that again, since in the described case the big difference so not how _far_ you are from the traphouse, but rather how _high_ you are. If your knees are are against the traphouse because you are kneeling, the targets would appear not to rise like a rocket, but rather go practically straight out.

    Neil