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16 yrd shootoff procedure question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by vatrap, Jul 8, 2008.

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  1. vatrap

    vatrap Member

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    An interesting question came up recently concerning shootoff procedures. I'll provide a brief description of what trophies everyone was shooting for and as much detail as I can remember.

    We had 9 shooters with 199s, 6 were out of state contestants and 3 were residents.

    The 5 non-resident shooters were shooting for Open Champion and Open AA.

    One non-resident A class shooter was shooting for Open Champion.

    The 3 resident shooters were shooters were shooting for Resident Runner Up, Resident Vet and Resident AA, as well as Open Champion and Open AA.

    Due to other shootoffs for other classes, we put the 3 residents on a field and had them start shooting and after a couple of rounds we put the non-resident shooters on two other fields and they started shooting.

    The three resident shooters went 7 or 8 rounds to settle the resident trophies and by the time they finished the other groups were just starting to shoot.


    The question is should the targets that the 3 resident shooters shot in the shootoff count towards the Open Championship or would they have to shootoff again for the Open Championship?

    Let the fun begin.......

    Thanks,
    Mike
     
  2. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    So who won?
     
  3. jdomas

    jdomas Member

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    Phillip Earls won Resident Champion after 200 extras.

    Mike - How about posting all of the results for everyone.

    John D.
     
  4. vatrap

    vatrap Member

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    John,

    Thanks for all of your help with shoot offs last week (and the chicken Sunday night) it made a big difference.

    I'll post them when I get the time and get the complete shoot report from the cashier, I got home about 1am Sunday night from the shoot and was out of work for 4 days. There is a pile on my desk a foot deep and I leave for the zone shoot next Wednesday. I'll most likely get the shoot report and trophy list from Bob Spence by the end of this week.

    Mike
     
  5. jdomas

    jdomas Member

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    No problem. I'll be at the zone shoot, so let me know if I can help.

    John
     
  6. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    I think that the targets the resident shooters shot should count toward the Open Champion. Was that the way it was handled?

    Seems like you guys did it back wards. I think everyone should have shot off for the Open Champion, squadded 5 & 4. After the Open Champion is settled, then the remainder shooters that have a choice, choose what trophy they will take.

    Jason
     
  7. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    You are not describing this very well nor did you post the rules your shoot was using. The shoot off might have been run properly, but what you describe does not seem to be correct. I believe all shooters were eligible to shoot for open champ before moving on to deciding resident runner-up, AA, open AA etc. You can put whoever you want out on the field (I would have gone with one 5 person squad and one 4 person squad) but the first prize to be decided is Open Champ. Because there are implications between resident and open, you cannot let people get way ahead like you say they did (more than one box of shells). After settling Open Champ, Resident runner up is available to residents. (Residents can shoot for runner up and still retain the right to fall back. You just cannot shoot for Class and then fall back to Vet if you are unsuccessful shooting for class.)

    So of the three residents shooting for open champ, no matter what happens with the first box of shells, at least one of them will be resident runner-up. Pretending that none of the three residents finished the first box of shells as open champ or still tied for open champ, one will be Resident R/U. Of the other two, one will be Resident AA and one will be Resident Vet. They will not spill over into the open arena unless the Vet declares he wants to shoot for class. If that happens, Resident AA loser is still alive for Open AA if the open guys and gals shoot worse.

    If the Open A guy loses for Open champ, he gets the A trophy and goes home.

    As you did not say anything about Open Vet, I assume that is an oversight.
     
  8. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Mike either way to answer your question as long as all 199's were made aware of how it was to be done. This absolutely needed decided and relayed to the shooters prior to any shoot off rounds started.

    If the decision was made to allow in state shooters rounds to count for open championship then all 199's needed to start at same time on two different traps. No excuses if this wasn't so!



    Mr Waalkes, the in state r/u and AA class would carry more weight for in state shooters than the open award as they are ATA trophies.
     
  9. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    Pheasantmaster, while I agree with what you write, I don't think the original poster knows the whole story. I believe Open Champion is better than Res Runner-up. regardless of that, everyone gets a shot at it. Before a single shot is fired, there are only two shooters who have choices - that is the resident Vet and the Open A shooter. They can forfit and take their trophies and leave. You cannot prevent someone from competing for Champion nor can a shooter "fall up", you can shoot for champ / runner up and then "fall back" but you cannot lose a shoot for res runner up and then fall up to open champ.
     
  10. vatrap

    vatrap Member

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    Gary,

    Rest assured that I know the whole story, with help from many others, I was responsible for running the shootoff that I was describing as well as a couple of others at the same time. As PheasantMaster described, the resident shooters were more interested in the ATA trophies and points than in the Open Championship. What makes you think that a shooter cannot lose resident runner up and "fall up" to Open Champion if all parties involved knew the details and the shooter in this case went 199 to the eventual winner of the resident runner ups 200, but better than the eventual Open Champion's 149?. I didn't mention the Open Vet trophy, because if the vet in question lost the resident runner up and the Open Championship, he had already declared that he would take the Resident Vet. trophy and call it a day.

    Mike
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gary- Remember that the open championship trophy is not an ATA trophy, and the ATA rules only apply to ATA trophies. It is true that most clubs do follow the ATA rules when awarding all trophies, but they are not required to do this.

    It might have been neater to have all the 199's begin at the same time on two different traps. All of the trophies in question could have been decided with a simultaneous shoot off. It does get a bit awkward having the 199's shooting at different times, but it is not against the rules. Shooting time can be critical when shoot offs are conducted at dusk. Fifteen minutes difference can make a significant difference is light intensity at this time.

    The shoot off was conducted. No rules were violated. The winners are to be congratulated.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. vatrap

    vatrap Member

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    As Pat stated, it would have been ideal for all of the 199s to shoot at the same time or as close as possible, however as other class shootoffs had already started on other fields and ran quite longer than expected, we did not have enough open fields to have all of the 199s on the fields at the same time to start with. What would make this any different than banking targets at a telephonic shoot as far as the rules are concerned? Last year at the zone shoot, our site was finished before some of the other sites and our shooters were instructed by an ATA delegate to bank 100 shootoff targets while waiting for the other sites to finish and all of the site scores tabulated and transmitted to the other sites. While we were not the first to finish, were were at least 1 hour ahead of 2 of the other sites.

    The shootoffs turned out with the 3 resident shooters taking the resident trophies and the A class non resident shooters taking the Open A trophy with 2 of the non-resident shooters taking the Open Championship and Open AA.

    Mike
     
  13. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Mike, what makes this different than a zone shoot with regards to banking targets is the fact all contestants were on the grounds and thus the non residents were aware of how the in staters were performing. While probably not a big deal (without knowing who was involved) proper etiquette was definetly not followed. Why weren't all the 199's put on the line first. You obviously know what the high scores are before having to run through the classes and categories for shootoffs?

    Mr. Waalkes, yes sir you can definetly fall up to open champion. Again I state that in state r/u and AA would be more desireable as they all ATA trophies than a non ATA trophy such as open champion.
     
  14. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    If everything was conducted "properly" I wonder why vatrap started this thread in the first place? Just for you va, I hope old Raffaele comes back to shoot again.
     
  15. vatrap

    vatrap Member

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    Gary,
    I started the thread because of two reasons, the first was due to a discussion at the shoot about the way the shootoff was done, legal but not ideal in this case. In case you were wondering all of the contestants in the 199 shoot off knew what was going on. I know a few ATA officials still check this site on occasion and hoped one of them would weigh in on the question before had a chance to ask one of them in person.

    Pat has run more shoot offs than I have ever seen and I don't doubt that he is correct, as I cannot find it specifically addressed in the rulebook, I was looking for an opinion by some experienced shoot off officials.

    The second and more important reason to me was that another official made the contention that a shooter would have to shoot off for any trophy that they were eligible for in one event regardless of the number of shoot off targets they had already shot for that event. I don't think that is correct in all cases, but again it is not addressed in the rule book.

    I'd like for Raffaele to start shooting again, he is still a good shot and comes out to the local club once in a while. I got to watch him shoot a 98 in registered 16s with a 28 gauge in Richmond a couple of years ago, still very smooth.

    Mike
     
  16. motrap

    motrap Member

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    VA TRAP: "............ What would make this any different than banking targets at a telephonic shoot as far as the rules are concerned? Last year at the zone shoot, our site was finished before some of the other sites and our shooters were instructed by an ATA delegate to bank 100 shootoff targets while waiting for the other sites to finish and all of the site scores tabulated and transmitted to the other sites..........."

    [I do not have a rule book handy,) so I am not sure about last year, but for 2008 it is stipulated in the ATA rules that NO MORE THAN 50 targets may be banked for telephonic circumstances ..........

    but, be that as it may ........ Pat is totally correct .......
     
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