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1 oz. Load Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by bigclown, Mar 25, 2007.

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  1. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    By changing from 1 1/8 oz. loads to 1 oz. loads you have reduced the amount of shot by about 12.5%. So, by going to a 1 oz. load how much is the reduction of shot expected to diminish a shooter's scores - it probably isn't 12.5 - in other words, if you can shoot a 100 with 1 1/8 do you "automatically" drop to a score of 88 by going to 1 oz? I know, so much depends on a lot of factors - especially distance from the target - but if all factors are considered constant, is there a "projected" or "expected" drop in scores based on the amount of shot used by going to 1 oz. vs. 1 1/8? I know Neil Winston has written about this extensively, so how much is a shooter actually diminishing his "average" or "expected" scores by dropping to a 1 oz. load?
    Thanks. Ed
     
  2. Mac V

    Mac V Guest

    Considering that it takes something like only 7 of the 460± pellets of #8 shot in a 1 1/8 oz load to break a target from 16 yards (with most of the rest being wasted) I'd expect that there would be no drop in scores if you used the same 7 from the 1 oz load and wasted only 403 pellets instead of 453.

    Mike
     
  3. SirMissalott

    SirMissalott Active Member

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    I agree the above if anything my average went up I dont feel handicapped at all.
     
  4. rockshooter

    rockshooter TS Member

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    I started loading up 7/8 oz loads and actually my scores and consistancy improved by about 2 rocks a round. 1300 fps very little recoil.
     
  5. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Thanks for the comments! Clearly, the difference in recoil with 1 oz. offers an advantage and going to 8 or 8.5 shot will help the pattern at the 16 yd. line and a few yds. back. The comment re: back past the 24 yd. line requiring more than 1 oz. - and probably # 7.5 shot - makes a lot of sense. Has anyone looked at where the "break point" is? Ed
     
  6. b6r8tt2

    b6r8tt2 TS Member

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    I just love how we, meaning trapshooters, really out think this simple game. I am glad that I read these threads as entertainment and treat this game as a game. Target against me, the target wins if it reaches the ground before I hit it with some shot.

    Enjoy this game.
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Big T, if you shoot from the 27 and not in the mountains, and think you need 7 1/2's, then you are likely to lose a bird or more. Otherwise theory indicates you'll hardly know the difference in score on a pellet basis. Most 16-yard patterns won't miss a few pellets; there will be others to take their places.

    All this is assuming your choke is pretty tight. With more open chokes, you might not have as good luck.

    Neil
     
  8. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Neil, Thanks very much for your comment...I was hoping you might see this thread. Is there some reference material I could read up on this...my curiosity on the subject prompted me to post the quesion originally. I am not a 27 yard shooter...working my way back from the 21 1/2 at this time as a Veteran. I would like to read up on this just as a matter of interest. Thanks. Ed
     
  9. chiefjon

    chiefjon Active Member

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    I have just reloading 7/8s. My gun is shooting where I look, and at 16s no problems. Stayed in gun, smoked birds. From 27 yds they broke the birds, so distance is not the problem.

    JON
     
  10. Large

    Large TS Member

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    the decrease in felt recoil and felt recoil associated problems will more than overcome the giving up 12% of the total payload. 2 3/4 dram 1 oz 16 to 27 no problem averages are up flinchs are down. jmho
     
  11. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Big Tuna - Check out the Technoid at his website for the difference in pattern size.

    But he once gave an answer something like this. If winning or losing is important to you, and you are at a level where you can win or lose by one bird, then shoot all the law allows. But if you are shooting for fun, and less recoil or saving some money is more fun, then shoot lighter.
     
  12. J.P.

    J.P. TS Member

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    When International trap went to one oz in an effort to lower scores...they went up instead. The only difference in effectiveness is if I center a bird with i 1/8 oz the target disappears. with 1 oz I still get smoke but some small chips too, on the same shot. 7/8 of 8.5 is a great load, I`ve said this before I broke my first 100 str. with 7/8 of 8.5`s. At 25 yds plus you will be able to figure it out for yourself, if not-contact Neil, He knows and He will show you his work!!!!! IM for 16 and full for handicap past the 22 or so. Enjoy the game. Relax and have fun, don`t make this a job.
     
  13. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    My experience at the club yesterday validates what Neil said. It was a fairly windy day, a common occurance at Pocatello, with the club sitting at about 4400' elevation (NOT in the mountains). My first round was from 16 yards shooting my reloads with 1 oz of #8. I missed my first and fifth birds, and the other three were not hit hard. I stopped to check the choke, and found there was none in the gun. The day before we had been shooting five from the porch (about 45 yards back), and I had put in my full choke. After shooting, I had taken it out, but forgotten to put the modified back in. Neil's point #1 - use enough choke. I reinstalled the modified choke, broke the next 20 birds solidly, and also all fifty from two later rounds at sixteen yards. I also shot four rounds from 25 yards, using my fixed full-choke unsingle barrel. Two were with the one ounce of #8 reloads, the other with one and one-eighth #7.5. I broke 22 each time with the #8, and 22/21 with the #7.5, about what I average from there. If anything, the breaks were harder with the #8, but if you check it out, the pellet count in one ounce of #8 is slightly higher than in one and one-eighth of #7.5, assuming that the pellets are really the size the manuals claim. Neil is also right that elevation does make a difference in pattern density and pellet energy. At the elevations where I do most of my shooting, 4000' and up, for me one ounce of #8 is just as effective as one and one-eighth of anything, and I don't lose one or two per hundred to a recoil flinch, as I sometimes do with heavier loads.
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Big T, here's the opening post on a thread I started about one-ounce 7 1/2's and how a test predicted they would work from the 27 at 900 foot elevation, like Vandalia or Sparta.

    If I had used 8's the results would not have been so clear-cut, at least that's what I think, but that's a test I have still to do.

    You can see the whole thread by a search for the title word "let's." It goes on and on, but no one ever posted any data except I, so you can see why I've never been convinced that my original post was anything but accurate.

    Neil
     
  15. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Neil, Thank you very much! I am retired - just do what my wife tells me - so I have lots of time to read through the material. This is just what I was looking for. Best Regards, Ed
     
  16. johnpe

    johnpe Member

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    Back in the mid-70's I lived in Colorado Springs and did quite a bit of comparison patterning. I pitted 1 ounce against 1 1/8 ounce with, according to the data, the same velocity with three powders, Red Dot, 700-X and Unique. The same shot, wads and once fired hulls were used. The purpose was to find the load giving the tightest pattern at 40 yards in the standard 30" circle. In all tests, Unique beat Red Dot which beat 700-X. Some of the one ounce loads, especially with Unique, beat the other 1 1/8 ounce loads. I used a variety of guns, M12 Pigeon Trap, LC Smith Single Barrel Trap, and both barrels of a Remington M 32 - all barrels were full choke. I've been primarily shooting one ounce loads ever since. In the last few years I've been experimenting with 7/8 ounce loads and am quite satisfied they work well. I've used them to shoot sporting clays to very good effect. A surprise was that the LC Smith shot almost everything well but there was more variation from load to load with the others. The LC Smith has a 34 inch barrel and the Remington 32 has 32" barrels.

    Johnpe
     
  17. oz

    oz Active Member

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    gee if you go to 1 1/4oz you will be shooting 112.5% duh
     
  18. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    johnpe - "Some of the one ounce loads, especially with Unique, beat the other 1 1/8 ounce loads."

    How so? Absolute pellet count, or percentage?
     
  19. johnpe

    johnpe Member

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    mrskeet,

    I was talking primarily about pellet count, but the powder ranking was comparing the percentages of all one ounce loads and of all 1 1/8 ounce loads tested.

    Your post caused me to go back to the data. Here is what I found. Part of what I found is that my 30+ year memory wasn't as clear as I thought it was. This a time before HARD shot. The shot used was Lawrence #8. One ounce load had 392 pellets and 1 1/8 ounce load had 441 pellets. I used 21 grains of Unique for the one ounce load with one ounce of shot, 17.7 grains of RD with 1 1/8 ounces, and 18.0 grains of 700X with 1 1/8 ounces. I also show that in addition to the guns listed I also shot a Remington 1100 full choke trap gun. Winchester primers, AA white wads and RXP hulls were used.

    Here are the actual results: One ounce with Unique through the M32 Btm bbl = 269, M12 = 269, LC Smith = 282, and 1100 = 296. 1 1/8 ounce with RD through the M32 = 268, M12 = 305, LC Smith = 330, and 1100 = 313. 1 1/8 ounce with 700X through the M32 was 274, M12 = 274, LC Smith = 268, and 1100 = 293.

    As you can see and as expected the 1 1/8 loads usually put more pellets in the circle than the 1 ounce loads, but in several cases, there isn't much difference and in two cases, the one ounce beat the 1 1/8 ounce. For example the M32 with unique put 269 pellets while RD put 268. 700X had 274 for practically no difference. The LC Smith with one ounce put 14 more pellets in the circle than did the 1 1/8 ounce load using 700X and the 1100 put three more pellets in the pattern with the one ounce load than with 700X. As you do the math the differences are small with most of the combinations and I don't think you could tell the difference on targets until the distances are long, if then.

    Here is a comparison of 1 1/8 ounce loads with different powders as a percentage diffenence of pellets in the 30 inch circle. Unique versus RD: M32 = +5.6%, M12 = +7.7%, LC Smith = +0.5%, 1100 = +1.0%. Unique versus 700X: M32 = +4.2%, M12 = +14.7%, 1100 = +5.4%. The M12 must have liked Unique over 700X, but it helps push Unique higher on the overall average.

    As you can see, one ounce loads can perform very well. One thing is obvious from this data. The performance difference between the two loads of shot does not equal the 12 1/2% difference in starting pellet count. The one ounce loads gain percentage on the 1 1/8 ounce loads. 12 1/2 percent of, say 280 pellets hitting the paper is 70 pellets. There is a much smaller difference in that between the average performance of the two loads. The average difference is 25 pellets.

    I'm sure that if the series was shot again, especially with the hard, high antimony shot now available, some of the reformulated powder and at a lower altitude, the outcome will be different.

    To answer your question properly, I hope you and others will excuse the length of this post. I hope it answers your query.

    Johnpe
     
  20. RemRod

    RemRod TS Member

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    In response to the first post 1/8 of 1 oz is 12.5%. 1/8 of 1 and 1/8 oz is approx 11.1%

    Just thought I would clear that up.
     
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