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1,000 Target Review for Singles Average?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by SF SGM, Jul 21, 2010.

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  1. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    Just a simple question. Where in the ATA rules is the 1,000 target review for your singles average? I must have overlooked it and perhaps my old book does not have it in it??? Just curious as last weekend I went from a B shooter to a AA shooter in singles based on the 1,000 target review.. If this is true, why is there a need to keep your singles average in you card as it is not valid when a 1,000 target review is done by the ATA..

    Tks,.
    Van
     
  2. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    There is no "1,000 Singles Target Review."

    When you are classified at a shoot, the person doing the classifying might look at your most recent scores to get an idea of how you are doing recently, as opposed to overall, and then use this information to put you in a different class than your overall average would indicate.

    But there is no formal singles average review like there is with handicap.
     
  3. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    I don't have a problem with the person doing the classification telling me based upon my last shoots they are going to bump me up a class on the rarely used known ability but what I do have a problem is when they tell me it is based upon a 1,000 target review and even goes into detail stating they drop your lowest scores and use the remainder to determine your average for that shoot. This is what happened to me. I shoot my lowest scores at my home club and these are the ones they "threw" out to determine a 97% average, up from 94%. Thanks for you input..

    Van
     
  4. Seitz373

    Seitz373 Member

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    Well I know that around here in NY and Pa, if your average is say 94 but you have a 98 and maybe 197 recently and some other good scores, they'll definately bump you up based on that
     
  5. Ray Collins

    Ray Collins Active Member

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    How many of your recent scores do you use to calculate your singles average? Do you include all of them from your first registered shoot forward? If using all of your scores, the recent scores will have a minor effect on your average. ??? Someone at my club insisted that you use only the last three scores. Can this be correct?

    Ray
     
  6. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    Your average is based on all the singles scores shot in a shoot year. So, if you have shot at 1,000 singles targets so far this year, you total the number broken and divide by 10. When you shoot your next 100, you total the broken targets and divide by 11 .... etc. Currently, the shoot year is from September 1st to August 31st. Bill Malcolm
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    On your card you calculate your average for all singles targets shot during the current year. For classification, each club can establish its own rules.

    Ray- I would never use just the last three scores but another person could do that. I look at the average for the year, the last 1000 target average (calculated quickly in my head) and exceptionally high scores and wins. But, not everyone classifies as I do and they are free to develop their own system. The way you are classified at one shoot does not carry over to any other shoots.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Ray Collins

    Ray Collins Active Member

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    Got it; thanks guys.

    Ray
     
  9. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    Pat,
    Per the ATA rules a shoot may used a different classification system than the published one in the ATA rules which state only yearly average and known ability will be used. It gives the club the right to use a different classification system as long as it is printed in the shoot program.

    So if classifiers are going to use a "snapshot" average of your last 1,000 singles targets, that is fine as long as it is published in the shoot program and shooters are made aware of it in advance.

    I emailed the individual who classified for the shoot in question and he stated that it was a system that was used in all major shoots including the Grand where they take a look at your last 1,000 targets and do as you said, a quick average and use that for classification. Fine, but as the ATA rules state, it must be printed in the shoot program.

    Van
     
  10. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    An example of known ability. I have somewhere around 2500 singles this year. My avg is 95.7. My avg for my last 900 singles is about 97.5.

    Some might class me as AA or even AAA. Yet my yearly avg is A.
     
  11. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Just wait until classification throws out a couple of low scores and figures your classification. Funny, they don't throw out the overly high scores.

    ss
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Van- Typically there is a comment in larger programs allowing discretion of the classification committee. Also, the average of the last 1000 targets could be covered by the rule book under known ability.

    BigM-Perazzi- I see many shooters on the edge like you are. I first would look for some 100 and 200 straights. They would tend to push me toward AA. Next, I would directly ask you what you consider to be fair to both you and the other shooters. I suspect you would reply "AA". I would classify you with your help.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Pat

    Oh, ok...


    99 97 100 100

    ;-)
     
  14. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    Pat,

    I have never seen the "discretion" clause in any shoot program. I know it isn't in the Grand as I just read it. Perhaps the EOC needs to change the wording in the rule book and use the term "guidelines" for classification as it appears it varies from individual to individual classifiers as to both their interpetation and means by which they classify.

    If I remember correctly from my golfing days, the USGA throws out a certain number of both high and low scores to determine your handicap. To me that is a fair and balanced way of determining an individuals correct average. Under the current system used, throwing out only the low scores and not an equal amount of the high scores is penalizing the shooter for getting "hot" for an event or two.

    As far as the Grand goes, we all know that it really doesn't matter what class you are classified as because if you don't run them, you won't make the shoot off but at smaller events it does matter.

    Seems to me, the ATA needs to remove the "grey" area in the classification section so shooters who do shoot in different shoots knows the rules when they are going to be classified and not be blindsided by a classifier using his rules.

    Van
     
  15. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    I'm impressed with anyone capible of calculating quickly in your head the total number of targets hit out of a thousand.


    I need a pencil, paper, and an eraser--even for totaling my total out of a 100 target event quite often!


    The subsequent division part I can handle.


    Really good shooters must make Pat's job much easier. Leo III for example. Even I could handle his--one miss out of 1000=999!


    Guy B.
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Guy- It is rather simple to add up the misses and divide by 10 for 10 scores.

    Van- It would not be possible to set up written classification criteria that would cover every circumstance. It would be simple to do it for 95% of the shooters. The person classifying must be fair to both the person he is classifying and also to the other shooters. BigM-Perazzi gave an nice example above in two posts (BigM- nice shooting, think AA).

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Van:

    AS far as this thread is concerned, there is no need for anything in the program other than the size of the class system being used, because everything else is simply in accordance with ATA rules, which by design are very open-ended.

    ATA rules are that you use the average and/or known ability and it goes on to describe factors that should be considered in the known ability determination. There is nothing there that needs to be specified in a shoot program. By design this means that individual classifiers have to make there own decisions.

    The post you made about the classifier telling you that "they" (ATA) threw out this or that score in a 1,000 target review is obviously wrong. Not saying you weren't told that, just that it is not true. My guess is that the classifier was using a software program maybe? The software may have been set up that way, but that would be shoot management's interpretation of known ability, which is fine, but not to be confused as an ATA imposed rule.
     
  18. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    Thanks to all for your input. Just seems to my old military mind that there should be hard and fast rules for classifying. 870, you are correct in stating that they were using a program for classification but you also stated that there is nothing in the ATA rules concerning how shoot management goes about classifiction yet the rules also state that if a another type of classification is going to be used, it must be stated in the shoot program. The following is what I received from the person who did the classifying.

    "I classified everone based on Bob Stuarts system's adjusted average. It is the same system per Terry Rouse that he used at NC for the zone shoot and the same system used at the satelite grands and the grand.The system had all scores reported to the ATA through June, However there may have been scores not yet sent in. This is the system that has been used at the larger shoots for as long as I can remember.

    The adjusted average is a snapshot of the most recent scores (1000) that most people use to see how someone is shooting of late. I have seen it bump people down and up. It is the first thing I look at when a shooter's information comes on the screen."

    To me this is someone's program that is used by many to classify. The problem I have is that what in the program determines what and how many low scores out kicked out to determine your average using Stuart's program.

    Thanks again for all your input and I will put this under the old "lesson's learned" category and just go and shoot!

    Tks,
    Van
     
  19. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Van:

    That's what I thought about the software. The point about management having to print changes in the program refers to situations where they use a classification table different from those specified by the ATA. IT doesn't refer to management having to define how they determine known ability.
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Van- Bob's program will provide a suggested classification, but it is not always the correct classification. It is not too uncommon to have a shooter with 400 targets shot in the current year with a class B average. Bobs program will suggest class B. But the shooter may have 2500 targets shot the previous year with a strong class A average. I would ignore the suggested classification by the program and put the shooter in class A. I classify frequently with Terry Roush and I know he would do the same thing.

    If a computer could do a good job classifying, there would be no need for a classification committee. I wish a computer could do the job. Then Terry and I would not have to sit around a table all day and I could play more with his dog Maggie. Maggie and I have a special relationship.

    Pat Ireland
     
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