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AtA Sandbaggers ?

7K views 37 replies 18 participants last post by  Milkbone 
#1 ·
If they're not winning, they're bags are full of something other than sand.
 
#7 ·
Bluedotman

"I was just wondering how many ata shootrs sandbag seams like alot of 20 yard shooters out their that has been shooting for 20 years whats up"

Thats right if you are one of those vile 20yd shooter you just have to be a sand bagger. There could never be any other reason for a long career on the 20yd line.

Why can't people like you mind their own business. Just how does the 20yd shooter that has been there for any length of time effect you????

Bob Lawless
 
#9 ·
Bluedotman

"Ivanho why dont you mind your business if you dont know why they stay on the 20 yard line you are as Dumb as they are."

I am minding my own business I am a member of the association you are accusing of allowing wrong doing by their handicap system. You asked if I was as dumb as they are? Well maybe I am but I know I am a lot smarter than you appear to be.

There is no correlation between a persons yardage and being "dumb" if there were you wouldn't even be able to shoot handicap.

Beside being insulting to people you don't even know just what yardage do you shoot and how long have you been shooting ATA targets.

Bob Lawless
 
#10 ·
BLUEDOT: Why don't you shoot and enjoy the sport awhile before trying to become an expert in what needs to be changed. Which is nothing. Your questions and suggestions show you newness and inexperience. Learn some of the history and why things are done the way they are before jumping in and getting jump upon.

Don
 
#11 ·
I have only two ATA events under my belt after several years of just shooting local clubs. I shot 96 at Jaquas and 98 at the Buckeye Classic from the 16. Both of these events were in D class and I won them both. I thought I would move up after the 96 but did not. I shot 91 and 94 from the 20 yard line at the same events. The 94 was fourth place. Most new shooters like me want to get better and move back with the big boys. At the Buckeye Classic this week the same guy, Skipper Frontz, won the first three handicap events for about $4,000 according to www.rjstuart.com . He shot 97 in the rain from 20.5 yds, then 99 from 21.5 yds, then 97 again from 23 yds. He had an 86 today from 24.5 yds. I don't know how long he has been shooting from the starting point of 20.5 but my guess is that it has not been long. I don't know how the ATA could be tougher on a guy then this last example without discouraging new shooters. The 20 yard guys all think that the same 27 yd shooters always win but if a 27 yarder gets beat by a target by a short yeardage guy he must be a sandbagger. It seems to me, the new guy, that the real problem is for those mid yardage shooters who had a couple of wins from the 20 yard line but now are stuck winless from the 22-25 yard line. Don Cogan told my Nephew at the Buckeye Classic that nobody else can beat you if you don't drop any targets, which is really true. If you break them all you won't have to worry about who is sandbagging. I love shooting ATA events and think it's great the way it is.
Doug Allison
 
#13 ·
My question, if the "known ability" rule actually has meaning, why do you have 98%+ shooters on singles on the 22 yard line? Should be a linear relationship between a high singles averages and long range handicap. Been in the ATA for over 30 years and still they haven't corrected the sandbagging. I was once told by an ATA Official that it's the shooters job to police it. After that the ATA lost its credibility with me. As Obama would say, "It's above my pay grade". Bt-100dc
 
#14 ·
BT-100dc

"My question, if the "known ability" rule actually has meaning, why do you have 98%+ shooters on singles on the 22 yard line?"

I personally have never seen that. I am not saying it doesn't happen. What I have seen is a shooter on the 27 that can barely hold a B class average on the 16 so why doesn't that bother you??

I also don't understand how a shooter average in singles has any affect on his yardage. You still need to be able to shoot a big enough score at handicap to get yardage.

The last I new "known ability" has nothing to do with your yardage.

Bob Lawless
 
#16 ·
Hap MecTweaks

"Bob, yes it does. First hand knowledge in that department and it can get one more real estate added."

Come on Hap just what are you referring to? I don't know for sure what "it does" is referring to exactly. I also don't know what is meant by "First hand knowledge" means.

I will stick my neck out and say the only referrence to "known ability" is in relation to shooters from "other shooting organizations"

It also says that.

2. SPECIAL REVIEW

a. “Special Review” is an evaluation by the Central Handicap
Committee generated by a high-purified average on a 1000 Target
Review or initiated by a shooter through his/her State Delegate
or a member of the Central Handicap Committee. The results of
a Special Review shall be agreed upon by the Central Handicap
Committee and the shooter’s State Delegate. If a disagreement in
yardage assignment exists between the State Delegate and the
Central Handicap Committee, the matter may be directed to the
Executive Committee. A Special Review may be used:

(1) To determine possible yardage increases for shooters showing
high-purified handicap averages on a 1000 target review.

I don't see that as being the same as "Known Ability"

Bob Lawless
 
#17 ·
I too have never seen a 98% singles shooter on the 20 yard line, so I did some checking. I have the 2008 Average book in Excel format that Neil supplied me. According to those records, there were 31653 shooters who registered at least some ATA targets last year. Of those, 93 had singles averages of at least 98% and handicap yardages of 20.5 yards or less, less than 0.3% of all ATA shooters. Of those, only 39 shot any handicap targets at all, so we're really only talking about 0.1% of all ATA shooters. Only 16 of those shot more than 100 handicap targets (0.05% of all ATA shooters), with the maximum number of handicap targets shot being 800 (800 singles shot with average 99.38%, 800 handicap with average 90.25% and 20 yards shown, 600 doubles with average 95.67%). This shooter, by the way, was foreign - I'm guessing Australian by the city name, but that's only a guess. Also by the way, none of these 39 shooters who shot handicap were from Kentucky. The ONLY possible anomaly I see in the data is the one shooter, from Missouri, who had a 98.67% average on 600 singles targets, a 99.00% average on 100 handicap targets, and yardage of 20.5. I could expect him, based on the rules, to be at least at 21 yards, but I suppose he could have been a subjunior who got punched 1.5 yards from the 19 for his 99. Looking at him in the ATA database in the 3S software does show he just turned 16 within the past week, so that is a plausible explanation.

In conclusion, almost all of these 98%+ singles shooters at 20 yards shot very few singles targets (900 at most, and then only in one case), and almost no handicap targets (100 or less in 80%+ of those shooters).
 
#18 ·
Rereading the above posts, I see BT-100dc said 22 yards, not 20 - my apologies.

Extending the sort to 22.5 yards or less brings us up to 158 shooters instead of only 93. One of those had a 98% singles average on 200 targets, and an 85.75% average on 1600 handicap targets from 22 yards. In other words he did not shoot very many singles targets, and perhaps had a good day or two. The second shooter, sorted by handicap targets shot, is the foreign shooter mentioned above. Most of the rest shot very few singles targets, very few handicap targets, or both, with almost half shooting no handicap targets at all. Your "problem" shooters amount to about one-quarter of one percent of all ATA shooters, with most of that explainable by the fact they barely shot handicap.
 
#19 ·
Bob, my "yes it does" above is an answer to your assumption that known ability has nothing to do with handicap! Your assumption is dead wrong Bob even though it isn't written in the rule book!

"First hand knowledge" above is reference to a yard I received via a phone call from a (banned for life, member) to his buddy on the CHC! My singles averages didn't justify that move, neither did my handicap averages from the 23 yard line. What did the (trick) was my breaking more targets than two others from 52 yards behind the trap with new traploads for money!

Ask someone you trust to prove me wrong or that it can't happen as I said? Don't wager your favorite trapgun on the answer though.

Hap
 
#20 ·
bt100dc

rules answer to 98%+ on the 22 yard line...9.

Only those shooters who have registered 500 or more singles targets
in the current or previous target year will be reviewed. If a shooter
has insufficient singles targets registered, his counter will be zeroed
and he will be printed on the summary until sufficient singles targets
are registered. At such time the most current 1,000 handicap targets
will be used in the review.

The following table is used to determine “relative 16 yard average”:
16 yard average shooter cannot be reduced below

97.0% or higher 24.0 yards


95.0% to 96.9% 22.0 yards


93.0% to 94.9% 20.0 yards

If you and others allegations are true, you need to talk to your delegate.

Richard Luckett
 
#21 ·
Bluedotman

"ivanho which are you Idiot or genius ? I shoot the 27 yard ihave been shooting 6 years i am 36 years"

Well I am neither idiot nor genius I am just a shooter that love the ATA and the sport of trap shooting in general. When I see people like you with no respect for his fellow shooters. Especially those that think that the shooters that are not as fortunate as they are and have a limited ability to break target are sandbaggers.

Tell us in your infinite wisdom just what would you have those that find it near impossible to move back do quit shooting? I think not they should make vermin you take a test before you are allowed to associate with some of the great people in the ATA, They may never shoot great scores but by in large most of them a much better people than appear to be.

I also believe that you proved just who the idiot hers is.

Bob Lawless
 
#22 ·
Bluedotman

"Ivanho I did take a test on the 27 My score Was 100 what was Your score? 19yard 75. i am their with the Greats Thanks."

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha HA you shoot a hundred what were they still in the carton........LOL

You couldn't break a hundred if you dropped the box off the back of the truck.

"I dont think you have to worry about the 26 yard line."

I can't answer for J Rudy but I feel that if have to worry about your yardage or for that matter any yardage you have got a couple of screws loose....LOL

Bob Lawless
 
#24 ·
Hap MecTweaks

""First hand knowledge" above is reference to a yard I received via a phone call from a (banned for life, member) to his buddy on the CHC!"

Well Hap it would seem to me that your bitch at the time was with the CHC not the "Known Ability" clause in the rules. Which is clearly under the Classification rule in the book. BTW you are not classified in handicap.

Bob Lawless
 
#26 ·
Bluedotman

"do you think Ivanho knows what he is talking about?"

He knows what he is talking about when it comes to you. Even though you think you were only Trolling judging by the responses to the thread your self indulging little fishing expedition. Stepped on the toe of the long time short yardage shooter who shoot almost every week and support the local clubs, State associations and the ATA.

You used them as a punching bag so you can have some fun to satisfy yourself you just go ahead and make those that have more character than you will ever look bad so you can have your fun.

Ya I do know what I am talking about when it comes to the likes of you.

Bob Lawless
 
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