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HOW TO SETTLE TIES WITH TROPHIES

2K views 37 replies 20 participants last post by  Pull & Mark 
#1 ·
We will be holding a major ATA event soon and will be giving out trophies instead of money. We don't want to have shoot off's as they take a lot of time and cost the club money. When we gave away money we could split it, but with trophies we need to determine a winner between 100 straights in singles. We can roll over to the handicap event, but yardage between the shooters needs to be close [not 20 vs. 27]. HELP! Any suggestions. Fred
 
#2 ·
Coin flip, reverse run, longest run...there are many ways. Just make sure it is clear how you are going to do it BEFORE it happens.
 
#3 ·
Fred.....There are several ways, as timb99 above said. The fastest, and easiest way is to flip a coin, or cut the cards for the win. That being said, I firmly believe ties for trophies should be shot off, thereby determining which shooter was the best shot for that particular day or event. Shoot-offs can be held "miss and out" to limit the number of targets thrown and reduce the time necessary to hold the shoot off. This will allow the best shooter to win by actually shooting off against others. Let the shooters that tie determine whether to flip, carry over, or shoot it off. If it is to be a major ATA event, it will be to your benefit to allow, and encourage shoot-offs. After all, that is the reason a lot of shooters compete in ATA registered shooting: To make it to the shoot-off circle and enjoy the rush. Why deprive them of the pleasure of doing so? I think that by not allowing shoot-offs, you are setting your club up for some negative feedback. If your club cannot afford to throw shoot-off targets you may want to re-think your entry fees, etc. Bottom line is that shoot-offs are a big part of registered shooting and not one to be taken lightly...Just my opinion......Dan Thome (Trap2)
 
#4 ·
I agree with Dan 100%.

The trophy is for winning a SHOOTING event and your shooting is what should determine who gets the trophy.

I've won a few that way, but it's quite a let-down getting a trophy for being the best coin-flipper.

We come to shoot, we should shoot until there's a winner.
 
#8 ·
Unruly is correct.

The ATA rules in Section IV, H, 2, say: "All ties whenever possible shall be shot off and in such a manner, as shoot management shall designate...."

Please note that IV, H, 1 specifically allows carryovers to the next LIKE event in singles and doubles events (and handicap in certain circumstances), as a form of shootoff.

Shootoffs are required, unless all the tied shooters agree to an alternative.
 
#10 ·
lumper,

I read that as a continuation of "....shall be shot off...", meaning that they may designate the format of the shoot off. Miss-and-out, etc.

Still, I don't think it is required as long as they inform the shooters beforehand or they all agree to an alternative.

I do feel that the club short changes the shooters when they don't allow for a shoot off. My opinion.
 
#11 ·
Personally there is no winner until one is determined and it is a chicken shit cheap ass thing if there is not a bonafide winner determined by how they shoot.

It would make me think and feel that the club only wants the money and thank you for shooting now go away.
 
#12 ·
Former ATA President Dave Kaiser discussed this issue in detail in his July, 2005, "House Rules" column in Trap&Field.

His conclusion: Shootoffs are required unless prevented by "a thunderstorm, power outage or something as simple as darkness with no lighted fields....Carryovers to like events later in the program do in fact provide one method of shooting off....In such a case where every shooter involved in the tie is still on the grounds, is given the opportunity to agree to some other method of settling the tie, and does agree, that would suffice. However, even under these circumstances, I believe it does not follow the intent of the rule."
 
#13 ·
The wording of the rule might leave a little wiggle room but the intent of the rule is clear. I suggest that the club allow tied shooters to shoot off. If I am involved in a shoot off, I like to flip. If that is not possible, I usually do not stay around for the shoot off. I would rather save my shells and time than win a trophy that is of little use to me.

It might not be good for public relations, but there is nothing that prevents a club charging the participants in a shoot off for the targets the club throws. I have never known a club to do this and I suspect the club would lose in the long run, but it is a possibility.

Pat Ireland
 
#14 ·
Darkness is our problem and the sun in shooters eyes from 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM. We will shoot off for handicap events, but it is the singles 100 straight that has no good solution. We will take the longest run from the beginning for scores under 100. We will not have a like event after the one singles event... everything else will be handicap. We are trying to accommodate our state and ATA organizations by holding this event with two traps [two more traps are in the planning stages]. A larger facility canceled out. Gosh, I hope Thumper doesn't show up... we just don't need attitutdes. Thanks for your suggestions. Fred
 
#17 ·
Mr. Stewart: It is not our intention to ignore the rules. It is our intention to support the local state and national orginization within our ability. A more supportive attitude would be a real help. I am trying to anticipate events and have a solution before they catch us off guard. Fred
 
#18 ·
What ever you choose to do must be in the program or the rules in the ATA rule book prevail ... If what you choose to do is not to the liking of the shooters they just won't show up and then you will have a definate answer to the question ...

I never flipped a coin unless I was flipping coins in a match all day, then to break a continual tie we'd do Rock, Paper, Scissors or arm wrestle if the guy was smaller than me or it was a female that I tied with ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
 
#20 ·
MTA Tom,

I will not argue the point but we used to set the guidelines for the shoots we hosted and if there was a variation from the ATA rules it was usually accepted as long as it was in the program (in bold print, by the way) ... The clubs rules prevail and it is stated as such in the programs when there was a difference, but still fair to all ... When I inquired of the ATA, they said what ever works and it did ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
 
#21 ·
Fred... I think that the ties with trophies involved should be shot off for...it does not cost that much for targets and such...this will bring shoters back as opposed to the ol coin flip plus as metioned above the rules do state that ties shall be shot of for......... shoot em... Kym Hughes
 
#22 ·
I agree with Dan. I prefer to shoot off and then again some times i flip if the other guy wants to flip. I think that mosy guys expect the option of shooting off and I believe they will feel cheated. OR you could look at it this way.... You will only lose the guys who shoot 100 straights at the next shoot anyway and who needs them? They just cost you shoot off targets anyway. I suggest you go forth and not shoot off for ties in the singles. I suspect you will be big money ahead in just a few short years. You may get so far ahead that you won't need those two extra traps. Jeff
 
#23 ·
Well after all of the suggestions and advice, we will hold shoot offs for all [singles and handicap] ties, unless the shooters want to carry it over to the next same event, which would be handicap. Simplifies the issue. Got into the ATA rule book again and the subject of ties is left rather vague and up to the event organizer, althought shoot offs are recommended. So shoot offs it will be. Fred
 
#24 ·
Well after all of the suggestions and advice, we will hold shoot offs for all [singles and handicap] ties, unless the shooters want to carry it over to the next same event, which would be handicap. Simplifies the issue. Got into the ATA rule book again and the subject of ties is left rather vague and up to the event organizer, althought shoot offs are recommended. So shoot offs it will be. Fred
 
#26 ·
Fred: I'd never shoot at this club because if didn't want to have shoot-offs. Man, that's part of the game that most folks never get the opportunity to partake in. I've lost more that I care to remember, but that's what they are for... to determine who gets the trophy.

I would NEVER elect to a coin toss, only if it was aggreed upon by all those in the shoot-off.

We've had clubs do this and then they wondered why no one ever attended the shoots.

IMHO.

Whiz
 
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