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Ownership Questions

1K views 25 replies 18 participants last post by  hmb 
#1 ·
Question #1. You are a dues paying member at a local club. You shoot a round of trap. Who does the lead shot you used to break the targets belong to, you or the club?

Question #2. You are a dues paying member at a local club. You are an archer. You shoot an arrow in the air and where it landed you know not where. Who does the arrow belong to, you or the club?

All answers will be keep confidential, Thank you. HMB
 
#3 ·
I don't want to own the lead after it leaves the gun barrel because then I would be responsible for cleaning it up if the enviromental police ordered it cleaned up. Do you want the enviromentalists to go after every ATA member who ever shot at Vandalia?
 
#6 ·
HMB...it is not confidential if it is on the web for everyone to see. Either you are trying to warn us of a possible future problem with the anti-gun community, or the anti-gun community will read this and take their lawsuits in a new direction. If it is the former, and you are a concerned shooter who is kicking around possibilities at the club, you may want to keep your cards closer to your chest.
 
#7 ·
hmb- You have actually raised an interesting question. The following is my opinion, but I am not a lawyer. Your question involves Real Estate law. When the shot strikes the ground, it becomes part of the real estate and ceases to become personal property through accretion. You can, at a later time and with permission of the land owner, remove the shot (severance) and it will again become personal property and not real estate.

Your question about the arrow is more complicated, at least to me. I do not believe an arrow stuck in the ground that someone else owns ever becomes part of the real estate. I would consider the arrow to be "fructus industrials". If you have an apple tree, full of nice big apples, on your land and you sell the land to me, the tree becomes mine because it is part of the land (fructus nateralus), but the apples on the tree are personal property (fructus industrials) and you may legally pick them before I take possession of the land. The tree would be mine and the apples are yours.

I like questions that make us think. Thanks hmb. You have given me something to think about all day long.

Pat Ireland
 
#10 ·
You may throw out all of the legal arguments you want, but that doesn't stop someone from suing every club member. There is nothing to stop frivolous law suits.

There is also nothing that guarantees that a very good lawyer would not find some type of legal loophole to set a precedence. Homeowners in a large, wealthy neighborhood, or a local anti-gun lobby, would probably be able to raise the money that it takes to hire the best. Take a look at the houses, for instance, around the Silver Dollar. How much $$ do you think those homeowners could muster up for a lawsuit?

This type of thing has happened to us in the horse industry in Maryland. The homeowners tied the horse owners up for a good long while.
 
#12 ·
This a perfect example of why this country is doomed.

Common sense is sorely lacking and we live in fear of bullshit lawsuits filed by leaches on society.

I fear that in time we will be totally oppressed. Then, a few "rebels" will see anarchy as the only solution.

I will be dead - still; I find it sad and frustrating to see such a dismal future.

Don
 
#14 ·
Lead (the metal) occurs naturally in many places in the world. There is no alarm about this.

Lead becomes hazardous when it is chemically changed, as in paint additive, or in tetraethyl lead antiknock compound which went into the automotive emissions for so long.

This should not be a point of argument in any legal discussion. A lot of the so called "common knowledge" about such subjects is largely based on conjucture, and becomes established as apparent fact through constant repeating(some of it hysterical).

Any gun club is taking it in the shorts if they have the lead removed and don't make a bundle on it in todays market.

Or club has mined 3 times in the last 15 years, and profited handsomely, sharing with the miner.

Our shot falls in water. The 20 year old shot that came out on the first mining was not deteriorated in the slightest other than a coating of silt and a miniscule amount of oxidization. I have shot much of it back into the lake.

Yes, someone calling the land unfit would surely be an idiot. But he may be a persuasive idiot and cause a lot of trouble.

If you reclaim the lead periodically you are showing good faith and environmental conscience.

It would be better to keep the lawyers out of it if possible.

HM
 
#15 ·
Some unexpected answers to the original questions. My purpose in asking the questions was prompted by the recent action taken by the board of directors of one of the clubs I belong to.

They banned the reclaiming of lead by members on club property. That is when ownership of the lead came to mind. Is shooting like making a deposit in a bank account? Can a depositor make a withdrawal if he so chooses? Or does the lead become the property of the club? Does a club member have a vested interest? Is he limited to retreiving only the lead he deposited?

Food for thought. But be careful, ingesting lead is the number one way you get lead poisoning. HMB
 
#16 ·
Just for the record;

I hereby transfer any interest I may have in the ownership of lead shot that I have deposited on the numerous trap ranges I have shot at over the years to the club/shoot management or other entity responsible for the shooting range where I deposited the aforementioned lead shot.

John C. Saubak
 
#18 ·
I am a dues paying member at two clubs, one is MultiLakes Conservation Association and if they mine the lead and keep the money good for them. Quite frankly at this day in age, with gun clubs closing we need as much money in the till as possible. As of Jan.1 we are opening on Saturdays for all shooting disciplines. We on shoot now on Tuesday night, Thursday night and Sundays. People go to church and football cames on Sunday, so we decided to open on both weekend days. Cash flow is at a premium right now and the volunteers for the weekends with help alot myself included.

The other club, Birmingham Gun Club is a managed club with someone there on Wednesdays,Saturdays and Sundays. They have their staff run it and well I might add.


Jerbear
 
#19 ·
hmb,

I see where you are coming from with the lead. The reference to the arrow threw me!

It immediately brought to mind an experience I had once.

While hunting on private farm ground and woods, the owner approached with a bent and twisted arrow. He asked if it was mine. I showed him my personal arrows, and asked why?

He said it was out in his bean field and his combine picked it up. It was stuck in there somewhere, and he was trying to find where it came from.

I always wondered where it came from also since this was pretty isolated ground.

The next season, as I parked in his barn lot, he approached again and said he had stopped all hunting and trapping on his property. This shocked me since we had been going there for a few years. He explained his young son was running beans late one night, and ingested a dead dear into the combine. He was really upset.

I guess I understand.

Danny
 
#23 ·
When you shoot, the projectile(s) is considered to be "discarded" and therefore belongs to the person(s) who own the property onto which it falls. In fact, if the projectile(s) are undesired by the landowner, he may sue to have you remove them, especially if it is considered toxic. Further, a club may make a rule that any hull that hits the ground belongs to the club so that you may not pick up your empties. We have all seen that.
 
#25 ·
Real Estate law in Ohio could determine that the arrow, if stuck in the ground or a tree, could be concidered a "fixture" and become "real property" thereby becoming property of the Land Owner.

I had to answer that because some of this really cracks me up.

As far as lead becoming a liability, our club was informed by a reclaimer that as long as a club has some sort of reclaimation plan in place and can prove that there is an honest attempt made towards a future clean up project, the E.P.A. is O.K. with that.

Ground with a high ph level and damp ground will oxidize the lead within a few years.

Our club takes 2% from each shooting event gross and deposites it in a "Lead Reclaimation" account at the bank. Our minutes from the meetings aslo reflect our intent.

On the other hand, you could say that you are systematically spreading lead out over the top of your new WW III Atomic Bomb Shelter to protect you and your members from possible fall-out. The arrows mark the path to the shelter entrance.

"Rico Out"!
 
#26 ·
I checked with my tax consultant, and he feels the charitable deduction falls within IRS gudlines. Also a clause in our clubs bylaws require a rebate on member dues when lead reaches $2.00 a pound.

I got the results of my last blood test back and after fifty years of handling lead, my numbers still are within the normal range. Remember if you want to stay healthy don't eat the lead. HMB
 
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