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209 primers

3K views 27 replies 18 participants last post by  fritzi93 
#1 ·
What's the opinion on the Cheddite, primer? They are a lot cheaper than the Win. I've been useing. Are they flat like Win. or rounded like the Fed.? Any problems? thanks Butch H
 
#2 ·
Think of it this way - all reloading components are manufactured to SAAMI standards. so all SHOULD work the same - obviously there will be variations - only you and your shotgun will be able to know what works for you.

I have seen identical guns loaded with identical loads - one loves it - one hates it. Go figure.

I would suggest you buy a box of them and try 'em.
 
#3 ·
In years past, I must have shot 100K Cheddites without any ill effects. In fact I used them and Winchesters back and forth without primer pocket size problems even though many insist the Cheddites are oversized and will stretch the pockets. My measuring device said the "size problem" is bovine fecal matter. The one thing that was annoying with them is/was that they are more or less squared off at the business end and often would "snap" in place in first-time-reloaded shells rather than slide in and that noise would startle me. I used them for many years until at one time they were priced close enough to Winchesters that I stocked up on Winnies. Those are about gone and I may well return to Cheddites if the price difference warrants it. Over the Chronograph, I found the Cheddites boosted velocity a nominal amount - so little as to consider them a nearly exact replacement for the Winnies.....breakemall....Bob Dodd
 
#4 ·
quote:
Think of it this way - all reloading components are manufactured to SAAMI standards. so all SHOULD work the same - obviously there will be variations - only you and your shotgun will be able to know what works for you.



So you think any powder can be swapped for another?
You think there in no difference in wads?
You think all hulls are the same?

Possibly you know what you are doing but there may be a reader who has no experience and does not understand your comments. It could cause damage or death.


Recommendation, get a good manual. Read all the manufactures sites for info and contact them if in doubt.
 
#5 ·
quote:
Think of it this way - all reloading components are manufactured to SAAMI standards. so all SHOULD work the same - obviously there will be variations - only you and your shotgun will be able to know what works for you.



So you think any powder can be swapped for another?
You think there in no difference in wads?
You think all hulls are the same?

Possibly you know what you are doing but there may be a reader who has no experience and does not understand your comments. It could cause damage or death.


Recommendation, get a good manual. Read all the manufactures sites for info and contact them if in doubt.
 
#8 ·
skeet100,

Are you really that big of a moron??

The question was about size and fit - NOT specific performance or loading data.

Anyone who reloads and does not take the specifics of ballistics, loading data, powder, wads, etc. into consideration deserves what they get.

Don't look for a fight where there isn't one.
 
#9 ·
Butch, I don't know what kind of shotgun you are planning to fire these primers thru, but I have HEARD that they can damage the firing pins on certain types of shotguns. The firing pin may or may not punture the metal cover on the primer. This causes a blow back into the firing pin and can burn the tip of firing pin. Some people on the site have had not problem with them and have loaded many thousands of them. I personnally know of several shooters that had to replace there firing pins and get rid of the remainder of their cheddite primers. You might try a 100 or so before you stock up and see how they work in your shotgun. Good Luck and Break-em all. Jeff
 
#10 ·
I have been using Fiocchi primers and have found that they are hard to use. They seam to be a hair bigger than the Winchester and I have had trouble getting them to seat all the way into the shell. Has anyone else had the same problem?
Major146
 
#14 ·
I would like to save some money by using cheaper primers but, apparently unlike some others who posted above, I have not taken the time to see if the cheaper primers will work well.

I reload AA hulls. They are the only hull designed for a tapered primer. Are the discount primers tapered or straight walled? Upon ignition, how much gas exits through the primer hole against the breech? What is the variation, if any, in chamber pressure due to using Rio Primers as opposed to AA primers? How much force is required from the firing pin to compress the primer compound against the primer anvil in discount primers. What is the time difference to reach peak chamber pressure using Green Dot and Winchester vs. Cheddite primers?

I am not good enough to just load a few Rio primers, shoot them and listen to the sound of the shell and determine if the Rio primers work well.

Pat Ireland
 
#15 ·
Dear skeet100,

This is the second or third time you have made the same type of comment about one of my posts – I suspect you think you know who I am. If this is true, you are wrong and I apologize to you.

SAAMI standards are both dimensional and performance standards, inherent in this is that changing any aspect will take your load outside of the standard and it thus must be re-verified before being used. The question posed was about the dimensional aspects of the primer, and my answer still stands – again, inherent in this is any change in components will need to be re-verified as to being SAAMI compliant.

Anyone who reloads knows this to be true – change a primer type and of course the powder charge needs to be re-visited.

To suggest that injury or death may occur, albeit true (please note this is technically true for any load – even one within the standards) does no service to anyone – this is a ‘the sky is falling’ comment. I suspect your logic is a bit backwards here – yes, all ants are insects, but all insects are not ants...
 
#16 ·
HI GUYS
I'm sorry I asked about primers, I think theres enough bad mouthing in the world, with out haveing it here also. We have a good thing going here,lets keep it going. I'm a shooter ( For 40years) not a fighter, and love our sport.
For the rest of you, THANKS for the info, I'll stick with the Win. Butch H
 
#17 ·
Hey Butch, no reason that you shouldn't ask a question such as this thread. I used to use WW 209's and now use Cheddites, about 100,000 of them so far. I don't hyper engineer or overthink my reloads, I just put em together, chrono them and shoot em and never had a problem with any load that was put together within reason. If you reload in volume and appreciate the cost savings you should like Cheddites, Cost is the only difference I have noted. Jeff
 
#18 ·
Butch H,

I certainly owe you an apology - which I offer now.

Did not mean to sour your thread. Just seams like every time one tries to give some information or advice someone else tends to stomp on it - not an excuse, and again my apologies to all if I insulted - was not meant to be so.
 
#19 ·
1. I do not personally know anyone on this board.

2. I might come off as rude but I was only trying to help.

3. If I have ever replied to anyones remarks more than once it is coincidence only. I do not follow threads here enough to know or remember anyones names.

4. I am a long time member of other boards/forums and just come here to look for general common items, I am a skeet shooter, and see what Trap shooters are up to.

5. I have never competed in a Trap tournament. I had considering trying it.

6. I was warned this board was loosely run and lots of strong comments and bad mouthing was allowed.

7. It would be better for me to delete the forum address and not return, of all the forums I am a member of and read on over 5-6 years this one is the rudest. I was too mad last night, for a stupid forum comment, it ain't worth it.


yall give'm hell
You all are a real shinning light in the shooting community!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#20 ·
skeet100

AHAH! SO you ADMIT to being a SPY? :) Just kidding. In reality, there are a lot of jerks on every forum. Lighten up and don't let it bother you too much. I read the same initial statement as you and also had a problem with how it was worded. It appears that there has been some clarification and maybe a bit of misunderstanding. I don't have a problem with too many people here, just the usual jerks that come out of the woodwork and hide behind their "anonimity" here. Quite a few people make recommendations that could be questionable and/or hazardous and I sometimes take a lot of heat for being contrary.

Now, back to the original theme.....

I have had no problems with the Cheddite Primers. I HAVE seen a few that did show perforations in other shooters firearms, with their reloads. It appears that they may cause damage to some firing pins. I shoot an 1100 and used to shoot a 3200 extensively and never had any trouble with them that was attributable to the primers. The newer Cheddites are about the exact same size as the other standard 209 primers. There was one other Cheddite type that I had a few years ago that were oversized. They are similar to the Winchester primers in intensity, but that does not mean they are a direct replacement and will they will NOT give identical pressures or performance.
 
#21 ·
brownk80

Did you test them for pressure as well? Rio G-600 primers are apparently rather hot when compared to other 209 primers. There was a PDF file going arond with some limited data for the Rio primers. I was certainly surprised at how high the pressures were. When the loads were compared to other primer data from other sources, a mild load with other primers could turn out to be over the top if a direct substitution were made. Follow the link above for the Rio data. Velocity and "feel" are not good indicators of pressure. Pressure testing is a bit more reliable and within reasonable reach of many reloaders.

TinMan88

I did exactly that last year. The difference was under .0007" if I remember correctly, but the Winchester W209 was "stepped" with a full diameter band located near the rear of the primer. The Cheddite was almost identical to the Fiocchi 616 and was full diameter from front to rear and not tapered. The Federal 209A appeared to be the smallest. The Remingtons were about midway in the pack with a very slight taper. I checked the Rio G-600 and they were more than a couple of thousandths larger than the rest and full diameter all the way up. I didn't have any of the Nobel Sport or older Cheddite primers to check at the time. There was not enough of a difference between the Cheddite and the other "Standard" sized 209 primers to worry about it. There WAS enough of a difference between the Rio and other primers that it would be a point of concern for me. Someone had posted measurements and another, pictures of the primers and the mic's last year. It was pretty much the same as I had experienced. The differences were similar. Check the url here for the info: http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/sthread.cfm?threadid=92916
 
#22 ·
brownk80

If you are interested in getting some pressure testing done, I believe that Kevin at Downrange Mfg can help you out. His charges seem reasonable enough, considering the investment in equipment and the time it takes to actually do it. I think it was $25 for five shells, but you should supply at least ten for testing to get a good idea and have hime test all ten. Kevin can give you the details. Just search for Downrange Manufacturing (mfg) or Downrange Wads on this site. He is usually slow on email, but easier to contact by phone. When in doubt, it's worth the peace of mind to actually know what your loads develop. It's inexpensive compared to the cost for repairs or replacement of a good firearm.

Some of the listed pressures in that loading data from Rio were real eye openers. Some loads were close to the limits and the charge weights were low compared with data for other primers. I could easily see a load go over the top with a careless substitution.

I am hoping that the Rio primer performs well in my cold weather tests. I will be putting a few boxes in the freezer for testing in the near future. I had troubles with the Fiocchi primers in cold weather with certain powders. I am pairing the Rio primer with a slower powder to keep the pressures down and get the velocities up. When I settle on something I might send ten to Kevin for testing. I'll ask him to test them at warmer temperatures to be sure they are safe, so I hope he has an oven. :)

Shoot Well! Quack!
 
#23 ·
This question appears periodicly on the ts.com forum. Apparently some refuse to believe their eyes. Silver cup is WW209, gold cup is Ched.209.

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#24 ·
brownk80

I've used about 19.5 grains of Green Dot with the Remington and Winchester Hulls. TGT12 in the Remington hulls and the WAA12SL in the Winchesters. I believe they both run about 1225 fps or so and the pressures should be well south of 10,500 PSI using 1 oz of shot. I have not pressure tested these, but the velocities were over 1220 when I checked them in warmer weather. Compare these loads to the data given by Rio, and it looks close. 17.5 grains of Red Dot or Promo in the Winchester hull with the WAA12SL wad also looks promising, but it's approaching 10,500 PSI. I usually try to stay below 10K. There are enough variables that can cause pressure to increase. Even a deeper crimp can almost get you in trouble sometimes and leaving a box of shells in a hot car could put you over the top. I'll be testing the Green Dot loads right from the freezer when I can get some range time.

Another load that seems to work well is 18.0 - 18.5 grains of Red Dot or Promo in a Federal Top Gun or Estate paper base wad hull using a Federal 12S0 wad or clone with 1 oz of shot. That gives about 1200 fps or a touch more. Great loads for one-ways and doubles with an auto. Don't load these hulls too many times either. The primer pockets enlarge after a couple of firings. You can use a standard primer the first time or two and then an oversized Rio, then toss them.

I'll post the results if I ever get around to pressure testing these. I usually don't see much advantage unless you really can't compare your load to established data. I generally use the data for the Federal 209A primers for comparison and stay away from any that are over 10K as a base for the Rio primers.

Good Luck!
 
#25 ·
Butch.... Back to your original question. I shot Winchesters for many years until they got too expensive, compared to the Cheddites. I switched to Cheddites and they worked great for a couple years. Never a problem one. About a year ago, I ran out and had to buy some more. I bought 25,000, took them home, and started to reload. I immediately noticed that my Perazzi firing pin started to punch holes in the primer anvil of the Cheddites. I had never experienced this with the older batch of primers I had. It happened about 1 out of every three shells. The results of that hole in the primer caused the end of my firing pin to burn and caused severe blow back into the receiver through the firing pin hole. The blow back into the receiver caused some corrosion to the sears of my Precision trigger, making it hang up on occassion. I'm not sure if the corrosion was caused by the primer, or the REX I powder I was using. I sent my Precision trigger back to Jim ***** to have it rebuilt, put in a new firing pin, and got rid of all the Cheddite primers I had left. I bought 25,000 Fiocchi primers, and, since I switched primers, I have not had ANY problems at all. I am on my second 25,000 batch of Fiocchi's, and I plan on sticking with them...... Just my experience.....Dan Thome (Trap2)
 
#26 ·
I just had a customers K-80 serviced for a ruined firing pin. Seems this one was piercing RIO primers causing a problem. Upon return from repair center, customer tried RIO's again with the same results. He returned all the RIOS and exchanged them for Federals-no further issues.

The moral to this story is that RIO's may cause problems in some guns!!
 
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