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What do Barrelsmiths Know that the Mfg. Doesn

7K views 52 replies 33 participants last post by  Trap2 
#1 ·
This is a serious question and also could be a good "troll topic", but I assure one and all that it is not.

I have shot higher grade trapguns that have had barrel work done by a very well-respected barrelsmith. A Mr. "W" I am told..he stamps his names on the barrels. The barrels really get the job done with less perceived recoil and just seem to obliterate targets "better"...

Question, and for example: Today I shot a "W"-Massaged" barrel on a Ljutic. 744 bore, I believe, and .025 choke constriction. I am curious about what is done? Why don't the factories do the same thing? I mean....one asks that question since it would cost no more and give a theoretical edge over the competition. What might be done besides an align bore over the stock dimension and a rework of the choke constriction? There must be some other work done, some secrets, some rumor about what is done, etc. I just am amazed to think that an independent machinist/gunsmith can improve a barrel from an expensive gun over factory. Yet I have seen it happen and seeing is believing; I shot a gun today that I swear seemed to have "eyes" likely due to a very good pattern. The barrel had been reworked by a famous Mr. "W". There is also a Mr. "A" who, I have heard, is also quite reputable and talented in that field.

Thanks and I am looking forward to an answer(s).
 
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#3 ·
It's been proven time and again that people perceive what they expect to perceive: they see what they expect to see and feel what they expect to feel.

There's no doubt that there is a lot of mundane barrel work that needs to be done: rib repair, straightening, choke tubes, re-bluing, dent removal, honing, boring, chamber liners etc. Do a workmanlike job on these and people eventually believe you're magic at everything you do. So when you check a good tube for straight, remove a little metal here and there, polish a few rough spots and tell them it's better... it will be.

MK
 
#4 ·
That's a good question but I think the higher-end guns are near perfection with the barrel/choke design and function from the factory. However, Kerry Allor re-worked my 391 Urika 2 Sporting and made 3 thinwall chokes with the result, a significant difference. For me, on this gun, it was well worth the money and the wait. Obviously, my 391 was not a higher-end gun but it is now.
 
#5 ·
I may be way off base, but there surely exists the possibility that steel, while the alloy is being made, may not be 100% consistent. This could let the metal in the barrel expand at different rates as the shot is going down the barrel. It would be overly time consuming for the mfg of a barrell to take the time to tune a barrell for a particular load or load range. Most are aware that a rifle barrel has a tendency to "whip" as a shot is being fired (thats why bull barrels are usually more accurate than thinner walled barrels). I really suspect that a shotgun barrel looks very much like a tube with a ball going down it that is larger than the tube. Imagine a golf ball falling thru a streched out nylon hose or a snake that has swallowed a mouse. To improve the barrel a good smyth takes the time to tune the individual barrel for the load it is being used for by removing and shaping the barrel for the particular load range. Thats just my theory, but surely something to explore.

Bob W
 
#6 ·
I do not know what Tom W. does to barrels but I do know he spends a lot of time getting things right. He first patterns each gun and then based on the pattern, determines what needs to be done to the barrel.

Quality custom work can improve many things that are made in factories. Tom is a very meticulous person in everything he does.

Pat Ireland
 
#7 ·
Mr.W says there are some barrels from the factory that he can't improve. My gun had a hot core before Mr.W worked on it. Noticeable difference at 35 yards on the pattern board after his work. 99.15 ave on singles and 92.83 ave from 27 last year. Did it make a difference? You'll have to spend the money to find out.
 
#8 ·
Here's what those barrelsmiths know.

And its the same thing P. T. Barnum knew.

There's one born every minute.
 
#9 ·
I have personally witnessed the difference after having a Pro re work many different barrels. It is not in my head as I did a lot of testing before and after. However, I have bought some new guns and was told they could not improve on the barrel. One that comes to mind was an early BT99 one of the first Inv + guns that came backbored. I sent it away and he sent it back saying it was as good as it will get. That gun was a shooter from the factory. I have also used Wrights chokes in a few guns and seen a sustantial improvement over factory
 
#11 ·
What they know is that they can open up patterns to break the poorly pointed out target or crunch a properly pointed target. These guns will not produce the dense puff of smoke equal to a .035" or more. Barrelsmiths can not completely eliminate the hot core, if they do, the pattern is going to be too open for 27 yard targets. I know that there are those that will disagree and that's ok. In truth the higher percentage patterns for target breaking are above .035" which I had always considered optimum. I had handicapped myself out of realistic percentages by having a gun modified by a very well know barrelsmith, yes scores/avgs rocketed upward but the end price was I was always going to be destined to have some handicap targets slip through the pattern that was correctly pointed. When I realized what was going on, I rebarreled, and things were just starting to come together and my eye was injured. I was forced to quit shooting for a while. Shotgunning is not a precise science it is a game of close enough, it cannot be compared to the internal ballistics of a rifle, there is no evidence of any kind to suggest that. "Shotgun patterns" is a misnomer, it is random dispersion on the average.
 
#12 ·
I imagine its like a good machanic with your car. I know a young fellow that can take a new GM Cadilac With the 500 horse engine and get 750 horse out of it buy redoing the computer. Don't ask me how but he does. He is a very young fellow that did't have a pot to piss in and within just a few short years he is a multimillionare. He tunes the cars for top gear you see on cable tv. He is bussy all the time at his home. When ask why the mgf. don't do the same he said they could but it the libality. I imagine its the same way in the barrel making business.
Oh by the way he only works for cash.
 
#13 ·
If you don't believe barrel work helps, then don't spend the money. But do you really have the experience to comment if you've never gone through the process and witnessed the "before" and "after" affect? Tom W. is as honest as they get, and he will send your barrel back with no invoice if he can't improve your pattern. He showed us barrels from an expensive new combo that had bores that were oval. It doesn't hurt to have a professional check it out.
 
#17 ·
Well, there are two proven results that a bbl smith provides. A lighter gun and a lighter wallet. Adn of course there is the inevitable drop in value.

If better patterns or more specific patterns are your goal, spend some time (and very little money) on developing a reload to disperse shot a bit more. Even changing to 8-1/2s may well buy you a target. Adn too as you move to the back fence you can once again adjust to a load that is specific to the task. Twinbirds is pretty close in his description.

On the other hand having choke tubes installed may buy you a a few (or one or some)targets. But even with those, believing that they do may be the most correct answer.
 
#18 ·
OK, first off, I have spent the money, shot it better aftewards too. Reached 27 yd line,avg.90-92 from 27, 98.3 avg on singles, numbers pretty much match yours? but never broke any higher than a 97 in handicap. What I have learned is that I was lucky. Check out Tight choke thread. Everything you see in a shop hanging on the wall is just one pattern and not a series of test patterns, what did it do for the next 9 shots? There is no way to control the random dispersion, doesn't matter if it is shot out of a $150 gun or a $15,000 gun. There is a difference in reliability and creature comforts between the two.
Mathematically proven what? The increase in working pattern? Obvisously, scores can be enchanced with the opening up of the pattern but the pay off is a percentage of the time you now have voids targets will slip through unscathed when correctly pointed out. There is no way to make an even pattern through a 30" circle consistently break targets. For that matter the pattern on paper is just what it looks like at that moment and doesn't mean that it wasn't full of huge voids early or later. Shot does not fly straight line.
Just because a test pattern is counted and marked doesn't mean it is the blueprint for the next 99 shots.
Again I have had it done, since then I have learned to point out more precisely, and feel that I had handicapped myself with built in misses.
 
#19 ·
Maybe the best person to ask why he does this might be Ray Stafford?? He's been an All-American trapshooter for nearly 5 decades? He did break 100 straight at the the 27 during the Autumn Grand last month too? He sells P guns and seems to me he'd have first rights on a good shooting shotgun coming direct from the factory?

Hap
 
#23 ·
<blockquote><I>"I have also used Wrights chokes in a few guns and seen a sustantial improvement over factory."</i></blockquote>I guess that's why more than 1 company makes chokes. I had the opposite experience with Wright's products compared to Briley. I suppose they didn't like the loads I fed them.

MK
 
#24 ·
<blockquote><I>"To improve the barrel a good smyth takes the time to tune the individual barrel for the load it is being used for by removing and shaping the barrel for the particular load range."</I></blockquote>I know how to tuna fish but how do you tuna barrel?

The only way I know of to change the frequency that a barrel vibrates at is to move or change the distribution of the mass of the barrel. This involves adding or removing metal. Adding will make the barrel thicker/heavier/balance differently. I haven't heard anyone complain of that. Removing metal also works. The factory barrel is a compromise of strength, durability and performance. Increasing one reduces another meaning that a "better preforming" barrel is either less strong or less durable. And how much less of either can you make it before you move into the red zone? Not my idea of improvements!

MK
 
#25 ·
If you would like to learn more about the art visit Jim Eyster's website and then give Jim a call. We had Jim Eysterize our 682 and it shoots softer and patterns better.

On a personal note - I couldn't believe how many fliers came out of those barrels before Jim worked on it. I'm not sure what factory processes would lead to such variances, but a factory can only work on a gun so long before a profit turns into a loss.

A custom barrel from Jim Eyster would make a perfect Christmas gift!

God Bless & Merry Christmas
TNCoach
 
#26 ·
I have an MX3 Special combo with a set of Tom Seitz's barrels now resting comfortably in its case. I originally had stock factory Perazzi barrels on the gun. I sold them after I bought the Seitz barrels to use on the gun. Why? Flat out, because they perform better. The patterns from the Seitz barrels shoot circles around what those factory barrels did. Both the single and the O/U barrels are much superior to what I had. My scores are going up each time I shoot the gun. I agree with Setterman, above. I have shot a lot of different gun/barrel combinations over the past 30 years, some good, some real good. None of them, and I have to repeat this, none of them ever shot as well as these Tom Seitz barrels do. Do you suppose that Ray Stafford, Phil Kiner, and most of the rest of the big dog shooters know something that we don't know about barrel tuning? They all send their barrels out to have them re-worked for a reason, and it isn't just to part with their money. My guess is that they honestly believe it gives them an advantage over those out there that think barrel tuning is a waste of money. Many shooters will drop a bundle of money to take a clinic from any one of these guys. They spend their money to learn from them. What can we learn from them for free? Have your barrel tuned for maximum performance. After all, they did, and it works fine for them... Just my observation.. Dan Thome (Trap2)
 
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