My goal this year is to win a 100 straight badge at our club that only allows steel shot. For those that want to jump in on this, feel free to post as well.

Last night I ran a 50 after 3 less than perfect rounds.

Coach was telling me I needed to be a little tighter on the gun and focus more on the target, less on bead. I believe he was right. If I held tight on the gun and was not dead centered on the target, they still broke. When I watched all targets and readied my eye hold before calling, they smoked.

Anybody?

Joe, this sounds like fun. I'll pick up 4 boxes and give it a try, hopefully saturday. I'll post my score on this thread.

Wayne

Joe, Are you using your handloads?

Yes, 1-1/8 oz of #6 steel from BPI. Slow, very slow when compared to the steel loads people promote now-a-days. It gives me great feedback. It's on/not on feedback so I can adjust - keeps me on task. I don't hand out recipes on line; that's the job of powder manufacturers. Sorry.

Did you know Federal has a target load that is rated at standard target speeds? 1145 fps w 1-1/8 oz of #7. Our club bought some and I liked them alot to the extent that I shot them until we were out (and Holga found out I was spending all this extra money each week).

BPI has a new steel 1 oz wad. It's the PT1260. Check out the recipes in their load of the week reference above. The loads start at 1345 fps which I'm not going to shoot round after round with and take that kind of beating. I'm sure the guy doing the testing isn't shooting 5 rounds per visit to the club...

Working on a 1200 fps 1 oz steel load with the new PT1260. Hoping it will be published by a major powder mfr. Want a yardage load? Use #6 shot. It has the same pellet energy as 7.5. Here's the data to prove it from an old Remington web page:

Thanks for asking.

Fishguts and Grunt: there's no reason why we can't all post 100s this summer!

To expensive for steel. Can you pour you own steel shot. I don't think now days many people can afford to purchase steel. If clubs start going to steel the price will shoot up fast. BPI is already to expensive. Bill

Joe, Joe, Joe... you don't need no stink'in #6s... #7s will do the trick... we all shot handicap last week and I used nothing but 1oz of #7 pushed 1325fps... and you saw how those numbers came out...

3/4oz of number #7s at 16 yards... that's the ticket!

Jay

Jay, You've been able to accomplish a lot with a lighter load and smaller shot. Nice job.

BPI steel shot is too expensive. We've beaten their price by purchasing steel by the barrel/ton. Our club buys several a year. One of the problems is shipping the stuff. Even our club price has increased probably because the shipping went up. What we need is a way to purchase it locally and pick it up ourselves. It needs to be wire-cut annealed so it's not too hard. There's a guy at my office who's dad sells steel locally...

Back on topic, I shot lead yesterday and only got 1 straight. I found myself telling another shooter what I needed to hear the most about my own shooting. Described Phil Kiner's clinic where Phil took videos of shooters from station 6. Back in the club house we found that we could see some shooters coming off their guns. The bill of a hat would move but a gun wouldn't. So, for myself, I need to get tight on the gun and let the gun move my face (yes, let the gun move my face) which will keep my eye in the right spot. I'm practicing this movement at home...

Not going to shoot today. It's Father's Day.

Joe

Happy Father's Day - Joe...

Jay

Thanks Jay. I do a lot of shooting without these guys, so on Father's Day, I chose to explore some IL terrain with da Kuhns.

I'll get back to my goal later in the week.

I wish you guys would quit posting about steel shot.....keep quite about it....or we' ll be shooting the stuff quicker than you know iit.....you might give some thought that the big guys like remington , Winchester and other manufacturers are the one 's behind the big push to use only steel, for bigger profits....steel is CHEAP! And they are going to really put it to us....just look at the cost of duck loads....you're going to pay through the nose,just because it will be "required" ...keep a low profile when talking about.

K80...

Where do you get this conspiracy theory garbage... the shooting sports industry has spent big bucks to support the continued use of traditional ammunition - LEAD... The industry is committed to lead. Good Science has proven that elemental lead doesn't migrate and is easy to manage.

That said, the fact is steel shot offers a viable alternative to lead for those clubs (a very small minority of all clubs) forced to use it when mandated my a state EPA/DEP. Better communication helps to minimize prejudice and bad information that runs rampant at area clubs and bulletin boards...

Better for clubs that can't throw lead, to shoot steel. If we don't talk about - who is going to?! Is it better that clubs close?

Sorry, but we're not about to stop now after being so successful re-inventing ourselves and using steel shot ammo...

Jay

You better not shoot any steel shot at our club. GF, Mt.

I wouldn't think of it. I shoot lead whenever I can and will not shoot steel at a club that is lead based particularly if they harvest their lead. I wouldn't think of polluting the lead in the field. I might be a customer some day for that recycled shot and I don't want steel in my lead reloads as much as the next guy!

We are not steel 'crazies'. I don't believe there's anyone at our club who would ever think of shooting steel at a lead based club. We happen to shoot steel because we must and we've worked hard to make it practical to reload steel in very comparable target loads. They are comparable in cost and in ballistics. Many shooters at our club shoot lead at other clubs. I bet they all prefer lead.

I loaded the machines at Naperville when I was a kid and will continue to shoot there because of my personal ties and because I like the shooters there. It's a great club with regular shooting programs that vary. Many have worked hard to keep it alive and steel shot happens to be one of the compromises. Our club is now surrounded by subdivisions, garden plots, a high school, baseball diamonds and a scout campground. It's nothing short of a miracle that we are still there. Better to continue to shoot with steel than not at all as Jay has noted.

Steel is not the demon many think it is. We're here to inform, not push the practice. If anyone would like to see what we're up to, contact me and I'll show you around and pay for a few rounds if you'd like to try it. You can check out the guns on the racks and look down a few barrels, even check a few chokes and watch some targets turn to smoke...

Joe

The general public isn't afraid to come out and give it a try. We're having a banner year. The second amendment is alive and well in Naperville, IL.

...rounds up 40%+ over 2011 YTD.

Joe... I'm taking you up on the challenge. Let's plan a Singles Marathon...

Jay

Our club has been steel only for a year. I personally shot 144 straight last Thursday night. Winchester #7's. Browning Citori XT 30" IM choke. Going to steel is what it is...

Joe

It's been quite a while since you last ATA shot with us at Glen Park. When you do run them with steel, come and do it at an ATA shoot at Glen Park with lead. Wayne will put you in the $100 Bounty Hall of Fame, and we'll throw in a one of a kind 100 straight pin plus $100 for your efforts. Then stick around and do it in the handicap, and be the first ever to collect the $500 Bounty.

Besides, I need a ringer to keep our guys on their toes.

Bill Radwan

Hey Bill, will do.

Jay - see you Thursday!

Nice shooting there Rem29.

Thank you Joe, may you double my run...

Rem29 - while we're on the topic, why don't you give us some context about your club. Tell us why they went to steel, how attendance is going, etc. We noticed a 'sell off' at our club but attendance is back up and booming. It's as though it doesn't really matter. As you say, it's just different, but not by much. With the new wads that have thicker petals (or harder plastic) and the removable chokes made for steel, it's an easy conversion. BTW I shoot an 870 with a fixed Full choke that measures .035 constriction. Smokes 'em up real good.

I shot a 98 with lead the other night but it didn't feel like I was on the targets that well. The club throws an orange target with a black rim and when the shadows get long at the end of the day, the center looks black as well making the targets look really small. It was a little windy from our backs so they were dropping some too.

Sometimes I stop looking at targets as soon and I shoot them. This looses some feedback when I should be seeing the full break of the target. I need to be sure that I stay on that target visually all the way through.

Joe:

What do you mean by the term "sell off" in reference to attendance...

Rem:

We have a number of folks who shoot the XT, a really versatile gun - many find it a nice piece of iron for skeet and sporting also...

All:

My biggest gripe with the firearm industry, whioh while committed to lead does need to bring its "steel" experience into the 21st Century... just as Joe alluded to - he shoots an 870 with a fixed Full Choke, I use a fixed Full 90T as well as a #1 in my Brownings... I hear from folks all the time who are reticent to shoot a nice shotgun with steel shot - they should take inventory on any given night by the regular number of Perazzi, Krieghoff, Kolar, Beretta and Brownings, etc... waiting their turn in the racks.

With today's factory steel ammo the old "hunting" rules need to be re-worked to reflect the realities of shooting "target" steel ammo... plus, steel shot is easy to self-load and very effective at the distances we take our targets at...

Jay

When stock holders don't like what they see about a certain company they sell off their stock and move on. (And when things turn around they buy back.)

96 last night with steel. Seeing the targets real well. Bad move to the left once, went soft on the gun a couple of times. 23, 24, 25, 24.

Joe, you need to pick Jays mind a tad more and at least try his loads?

"Joe, Joe, Joe... you don't need no stink'in #6s... #7s will do the trick... we all shot handicap last week and I used nothing but 1oz of #7 pushed 1325fps... and you saw how those numbers came out...

3/4oz of number #7s at 16 yards... that's the ticket!"

Jay

Hap,,,agrees with him.

Hap - what specific load has been working for you?

Jay and I had a good discussion about this at the club the other night. He made his point about not needing all that shot and upping the speed some. My point is that it's not a matter of 'need', it's a matter of 'want'. I've shot 1 oz loads for years and switched to 1-1/8 oz when we couldn't get any more steel wads in the 1 oz size. I tried the 7/8 oz wads and didn't like the breaks. I recently tried a 1 oz shell in lead and noticed the smoke is not as pronounced. I find the 1-1/8 oz load in 7.5 in lead and #6 in steel to be a real confidence builder. The feedback is phenomenal when you see a nice big smoke puff floating off in the sky.

However, since I'm always willing to try something, I put some electrical tape on the inside of my 1-1/8 oz bar for steel. The load is down to 470 grains which is pretty close to 1-1/16 oz. I like this load a lot. Shells close up easier on my loader and it gives me the feedback I like to see. Here's the break down on grains:

492 grains - 1-1/8 oz

465 grains - 1-1/16 oz

437.5 grains - 1 oz

Gene...

Thanks for the support...

298 pieces of #7 thrown at 1150fps +/- is my way of personally handicapping myself at singles... while I throw an occasional jab at the guys who want a full 1-1/8oz and/or hurl those same 450 spheres at 900mph, I've come to accept that my trapshooting will only be my trapshooting...

Tomorrow, we register some singles... I'll be shooting "light and slow"... my best has been a 99... IT'S ALL ON ME... my continuing goal is to hold it together, break 'em all using the lightest possible load... Let's see how I do...

Joe and I are talking about putting together a "Steel Marathon"...

best regards all,

Jay

Guys, my only point is this. If you have a goal, we all should, watch what works so well for those shooting great scores. It may or may not work the same for you but you can't know that till you try?

Most people take singles shooting for granted as easy targets. Not at all true! The angles are quicker, patterns are smaller and precise pointing is a must for a great score! More gun movement means more chance of error!

Didn't mean to jump into a steel discussion as I've only shot steel shot one time in my life. Excuse my ignorance.

Hap

Hap - nobody said you're ignorant. I'm just wondering what lead load you've had the most success with lately. I've heard about your scores and respect that.

Jay and I are just shooting different steel loads. We're doing so for different reasons. It is what it is.

I've tried lighter loads. This is my attempt to try something different - a heavier load.

I'd like to address the statement from ForceBreak about not shooting steel at his club in MT. His point is important to clarify in terms of reasons. If we are to get along, we need to understand details about your view. What are the reasons behind your statement? It's important to know your thinking.

There may be emotional reasons, and that's fine, but what are the details? Maybe your club harvests shot and you don't want steel in it. That's makes sense. Whatever else you may have behind your preference, it would be good to get them out in the open so folks know.

Here's a bit of a different twist on the subject. Why not set up rules for lead only clubs that say 'non-toxic shot is not allowed'? I'd be just has happy to comply with that kind of rule as I've been shooting steel at our steel only club. I think Jay would too. He suggested such a rule. Heh.

Well... today wasn't to be the day, but an ATA 96 took top singles by Denny, finishing off his last 25 straight - KX-5 was the winning iron... with me a distant 93... heat and humidity added to the challenge... yet the 3/4s in the 90T did their part!

Best regards all,

Jay

...and Joe had an even lower score of 90 in singles. But my 95 took the yardage event. I would not stop until I shot a straight at 16s, which I was able to do after the event.

Congrats on your handicap win Joe!!

Hap

Great score in the handicap Joe. Heck, that would have been a great score with lead. Did you have enough shooters to get a punch? Inquiring minds want to know.

Bill Radwan

Not enough shooters for a punch. I'm pretty sure Joe knew he needed 96 for a punch, so he missed one late on the last trap to ensure he got to stay at the 19. When I told him after the event that 96 would have gotten him a punch, he feigned disappointment that he missed late and didn't get a punch.

Scott

Hah, I would have taken a punch. Did not know about the rule. Don't shoot ATA much, but I can take a ribbing.

Happy for the yardage score, but not happy with the singles score at all. Targets were up and down. Until I actually lowered my hold point my scores were correspondingly choppy.

Thanks Hap - hope you are shooting well.

And Bill, I see you have a shoot coming up. Hm.

Joe - Sorry for the delay in replying but my daughter's wedding was this past weekend and it was spectacular, right up there with trap shooting....LOL

I think the big issue moving to steel is best addressed in two main areas. First and foremost people do not like to be told what to do especially in a club situation. Changes should be addressed to all members of the club and opinions shared even if the move to steel is mandatory due to shooting over a wetlands or such. Education and respect is elemental in changing over. The second issue is the issue that some have mega-expensive guns with fixed full chokes and do not want to shoot steel thru them or get them retrofitted with exchangeable chokes. I do not know how to cure this however I do understand how they feel. It is that magic respect word again...

Attendance dropped a wee bit I guess but new shooters have back filled so it is really a wash. The people who "dropped out" go to other fields but it is just a matter of time before those fields are asked to go green too. Like i said before, it is what it is. We all got used to recycling and wearing seat belts so I believe that time will work its healing powers here as well.

We all by now should know that steel shoots one choke tighter (modified = full, IC = modified, etc). Recommendations are to shoot modified but I contacted Browning Engineering and was assured that shooting #7's or #6's was fine with an improved modified choke. Those concerned with steel eroding the barrel need to understand that the steel does not contact the barrel but is encased within the wad or sabot until it leaves the barrel. I have 1000's of rounds through my beloved XT and have no evidence of wear via measurement. (For the record I am a mechanical engineer and rely on data (measurements) not opinions whenever I can.)

The one thing I can say about steel over lead is that steel runs the barrel hotter. This is nice in New England especially in February!

Remmie...

At the end of "Moneyball" the owner of the Red Sox tells Brad Pitt that the first guy through always gets bloody... while we may not have been the "first" to shoot steel, I believe we may have been the first to really go "mainstream" with it.

During our closure and the realization that we would ONLY reopen using steel shot got us "bloody"... no choice - never was a choice, but forced us to reinvent ourselves and re-package our entertainment to a new market. It also forced us to become the "experts" in the use of a fledgling type of target shot.

Even today after all our continuing success... there is plenty of poor information and rumour circulating. Maybe its lack of education, maybe it's something else... but I put some of the responsibility back onto the manufacturing industry itself, as they lag in real world experience and/or put limits to insulate themselves from lawsuit.

Smaller and slower steel shot as opposed to hunting loads can be shot through a Full Choke... period. Not every Full Choke patterns best, but then every gun should be patterned and ONLY a minority of shooters ever bother to find out how their gun patterns and/or where the gun points. In 12 years, our club has patterned 1000s of rounds... shot millions of rounds... we've found that the old rules for hunting don't all apply to target steel...

I shoot a Full Choked 90T and my guest gun is BT99 with a #1 Choke... my members shoot Perazzi, Krieghoff, Browning, Kolar, Beretta, Remington, Franchi, Ljutic, SKB... Auto5s, Model 12s, 870s, T/S, DT10, K80, KX5, Special Traps, XTs, 525s... anything you can think of is getting the cobwebs cleaned out... with steel shot ammo...

Figure out where you want to be in your market, position yourself there and shout as loud as you can on how great your program is... and let all the negative folks go elsewhere...

Jay

Rem29 - Appreciate hearing about your club.

I would encourage every club out there to fight their own battle to keep lead. Our park district has measured overflow from the nearby pond for a long time and never found any lead in it. Based on this we can say lead does not leach into run off. Lead in shot is supposed to be inert, but I don't have scientific articles or text book pages to quote from. It seems to me that rust from steel is also a variable...detailed work with data is in order when it matters.

Dr Andrew has compared lead patterns versus steel patterns and he reported that steel is slightly looser which is contrary to what you hear. We think the choke companies have promoted looser chokes to protect themselves when there really is no support for the steel-shoots-tighter concept. It would be worth measuring. We're not saying mag 4s wouldn't be a problem, but then we're not shooting magnum 4s. We're limited to #6, 3 dram loads.

I've patterned both shot types at different clubs and I can't see a difference with my eyes. You're going to need Dr. Andrew's computer program to really get your answer if you need more proof. My concern was to get my poi correct and didn't notice a difference that caused concern. I did have a choke stretch once so I suggest you get one that is rated for steel. You may want to measure the difference between your bbl and your choke to be sure you know what constriction you have. See the Briley list above. Turkey chokes are tighter and are rated for steel if you want to get a nice full choke. I have one in my Browning Maxus which I intend to shoot with steel later in the summer. Constriction is .035.

Shot a 99 last night, with lead. Perfectly calm and clear evening.

Joe:

On the subject of Lead (Pb) "mobility"... there are a number of articles, based upon good science on the subject. That's not to say that Lead cannot break down in acidic conditions, but with neutral pH; we are fortunate to not have that exposure...

... 99, I expect better from you Kuhn!

Jay

Shot a 96 last night with steel. Hot night. Glasses fogged up.

I should be shooting 98s and 99s if I'm ever going to reach my goal. Noticed my gun hold point had to be lower to get smoke. That way I came up into the target from the below and smoked it, but that didn't give me much room below the red circle of my holosight to see the bird. I'm going to pull the poi down some to give me more breathing room and go directly at the target. If I want a different result, I'm going to have to make a change. Why would anyone expect elsewise?

Later, Joe

"Noticed my gun hold point had to be lower to get smoke."

Joe, being the analytical kinda guy you are, what took place to make that happen, to get total smoke?

Hap

Joe are you still shooting the Barrakuna

Phil Berkowitz

Hey Phil! Good to hear from you. You bet I'm shooting a BarraKuhna. Here it is. See other thread for details.

Hap - just noticed your question. I was shooting a flat poi in the spring and guys were telling me my patterns were low on the targets. They were right, so I raised up the poi and voila, better smoke. Now I think I'm practiced quite a bit more and in better shape, so I need to move it back down again. Will try one turn and see. Your thoughts?

Depending on swing speed alone to make the connection won't work too well for some, all the time. That goes for vertical as well as horizontal moves. Changes in gun and ammo speeds require a back to basics change. Post three till your centering/smoking clays, move to 1 and 5 to confirm. Find the best happy medium between those three stations and your set to attack trap targets at your personal best timing.

Hap

Don't know about swing speed, but I did move my pattern down one turn today. I think it helped with better breaks (better smoke). It should be shooting near flat so I can go straight at the targets. Will check poi tomorrow and shoot some steel. Did break a 95 with lead today even with the poi change. Also noticed when I put more energy into my shooting the breaks get significantly better.

99 no matter how you cut it today. All with steel shot at Naperville.

25, 24, 25, 25, 25, 24

Slight swirling wind at end of day, otherwise hot, humid and dead still. Fun. Really took my time with some brand new shooters to my left. I'd wait until his target hit the ground. Then go. Lower poi is working great.

Missed two slight left handers. Didn't see either one well enough.

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.... I'm expecting better Kuhn...

Jay

A while ago I had the opportunity to shoot as a guest at the Naperville club. I, like many of us, knew that steel just wasn't good for my guns, was too slow and didn't pattern well. I learned all about that talking to my pals at other clubs. They learned it the same way. Hard data really wasn't necessary. Joe and Jay couldn't have been more helpful. I am having some eye problems and wanted to try Joe's red dot sight.

I learned several things. To my amazement, my pals at my other club, really didn't know what they were talking about. Using Jay's "guest" BT99, steel shot and whatever choke he had in the gun, I found that I shot about the same, 23-24, as I usually do with my 99 and lead. It was fun and Naperville is a great club. These members were able to reopen their range because instead of taking a hard line with the town, they negotiated what was possible.

Traders - I hope you were able to shoot my gun. Please don't hesitate to ask. Sometimes I get wrapped up in my own shooting and forget to offer. There's plenty of time for folks to try it. And if I had an adj butt pad, it would be easier to fit it to you to really give you a sample run. It is heavy and the optics take some getting used to. I was sold right away because of my own cross-firing problems. My off gun eye was seeing the target on left handers and my brain wasn't switching back to the other eye for the shot. Maybe it's age, but this seems to solve it. My on gun eye can see the target all the time now, so it's good.

I hold my gun even and look just below the circle. When I get a good fix on the moving target I go right at it and fire when the circle gets to where I'm looking.

Traders...

You shot that BT99 using a Full Choke - not some modified choke to "equal" Full, an unaltered, single slash, Inv+ Browning... you're welcome back anytime...

Just let me know in advance, so I can have the gun available at the range for you...

Jay

Hi Joe. I'm in on the 100 straight with ya. -Bob..

21, 24, [24, 25, 24, 25] = 98

Started slow tonight but finished ok. Hot, humid, perfectly still. Mental reminders: stay tight in the gun and see the target before shooting. Focus; really see it.

Lead shot tonight, no steel. Last round was shot with white targets in the lights.

25, 25, 23, 24 = 97 with steel shot. Targets were a little high so I held higher. For some reason I lowered my hold and missed two in that third round. Back up and started hitting again.

Joe -

If the targets were high, you should have asked shoot management for a reset. Mike set them last night, and he tends to like them a little higher than most people. If it means 100 straight we'll hang them on a string if necessary.

The videos have been emailed.

Scott

Thanks Scott. Videos posted on other thread. When the wind died down, they were definitely high. I reset it myself for that last round and it didn't seem to help. I still missed one. Desire no special treatment here. It was all me.

24, [24, 24, 25, 25] = 98 with steel shot.

24, 21, [24, 25, 24 24] = 97 with lead shot.

23, [23, 20, 22, 24] = 89 with steel shot.

Difficult night. Targets were high and low from blustery wind as weak storms came through the area. By the end, staying in the gun perfectly lead to 15 straight smoked targets.

A couple of low targets beat me today along with two houses that were set differently.

Something's got to change and that'd be me. Next plan is to find the issues ahead of time and beat them.